ESTD Miguel
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[00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome to the Easiest and Than Done podcast. And I'm very excited because today we have one of our strongest students a gentleman called Miguel, who I'll get you to I'll get him to introduce you himself to you in a moment.
But the reason I brought Miguel on is he's a, a classic example. Of someone who comes from a non-traditional background doing very brave things, breaking into tech, and has actually made tremendous strides in a fairly short period of time. And when I say fairly short, I'm not talking about months.
Nobody gets to big results in a few months. But, you know, Miguel's the kind of guy you'll see you'll see about the way he talks and the way he, he thinks about things. He's in it for the long term. He's playing the long game. Got a tremendous work ethic, great focus, and a real hunger to learn all the things we look for in the, in the Parsity Inner Circle program when we are working with our students.
INTRO
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Welcome to Easier Said Than Done with me, Zubin Pratap, where I share with you the tens of thousands of dollars worth of self development that I did on my journey from 37 year old lawyer to professional software engineer. The goal of this podcast is to show you how to actually do those things that are easier said than [00:01:00] done.
So Miguel, in that sense, is, is very typical student. And because we work with so few of them, we get to bring them on the show to you know, to help them share their story. So Miguel, welcome and thanks for taking the time to be on the show, man. Yeah. Thank you for having me, Zubin. It's great to be here.
Absolutely, dude. We've really enjoyed, well, Brian and I have really enjoyed working with you for months now and we've seen your journey and you know, so really, really keen to dive into all that. Why don't you tell us a little bit about, you said Miguel before you got into the coding thing, what were you doing for work.
You know, let's start there. Yeah. So I, before coding and all that, I was welding for about three to four years in manufacturing. I, I really didn't like it. You know, I set limits to myself to where I just, expected myself to be in the trades, not really looking outside of the trades or anything like that, but actually experiencing being in manufacturing and working it for three to four years, [00:02:00] seeing how everyone is unhappy
at my company, everyone's favorite time is at 3:00 PM in the workplace. No one ever talks great about the company and no one wants to be there, and I just didn't. Want to just get another manufacturing job. I wanted to, I didn't wanna limit myself, so what I did was I started kind of doing more research.
I, I expanded my, my research and I was basically looking for six figure jobs I could make without having to go to college and coding was one of them. So I dabbled kind of got into H-T-M-L-C-S-S JavaScript through YouTube. Yeah. And I really enjoyed it and it was something that I just wanted to stick with and pursue.
The reason why I chose six figure jobs without having to go to college. 'cause school first is not personally for me. Mm-hmm. I never did well in school. Mm-hmm. [00:03:00] Didn't like it. Ironically enough though, I did end up going to and doing associate's degree for software engineering at a technical school.
I will get to that. But basically, yeah, I just didn't want to limit myself. Okay. And one of my biggest fears at the time was working in a manufacturing job, working a job that I hate, and seeing some young kid come in, pursuing his goals, his ambitions, and me looking back 20, 30 years from now and being like, what if I didn't give up on coding?
Where would I have been? Wow. So you are talking really so clearly. I mean, even then you're thinking really long term. You're asking 25 year down the track kind of questions. Yeah. And for me, really just doing that self study and taking the two to three years just to learn is. Worth it, in my opinion. Okay.
Alright. So just right before you, 'cause [00:04:00] you've, you've, you've mentioned a lot , I'd like to unpack a couple of things. You, you mentioned several times, three times that I counted Miguel. You didn't wanna limit yourself. What does that mean to you? And the reason I'm asking that is pretty much everyone we speak to when we, you know, seeing whether they're fit for the Inner Circle Proram, because like I said, we work with so few of them.
Pretty much everyone we speak to, we noticed have very timid goals. Mm-hmm. It's like they don't believe what's possible for them, you know? Correct. Tell me about what you mean by I place limit on myself.
AUDIO CTA
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Hey, hope you're enjoying this episode. Listen, I bet you're tired of the social media BS. You're confused and overwhelmed. And all you want is for someone to just show you a clear path to a coding career. Right? We get it. My partner, Brian and I. We changed to code in our thirties and we can help you do it too.
Brian and I have done all sorts of engineering work from startups to Google, and now we've built an exclusive private mentorship program designed to get you [00:05:00] from beginner to professional developer, whether you've done a coding bootcamp, you have a computer science degree, or you're starting from zero, it doesn't matter.
We'll build you a step by step and customized plan not just for the coding stuff, but for the entire career change process Look, i'll be honest. The program is not easy and it's not short But if you do the work, you'll get results that will change your life If that's what you want go to parsity. io slash inner- circle or find any of the links in the show notes And you can schedule a free call with us speak to you there
Pretty much everyone we speak to, we noticed have very timid goals. Mm-hmm. It's like they don't believe what's possible for them, you know? Correct. Tell me about what you mean by I place limit on myself.
What does that look like? What does that feel like? Yeah. For me, limitation was not being able to get into
a specific career or be able to do a certain thing. [00:06:00] I just felt very limited. Like I was only able to do trade work, be in the trades. Like that was my highest potential. Mm-hmm. And I didn't really think of anything else. You know, I didn't do well in high school didn't know what I wanted to do after high school.
You know, I remember in high school they kind of make you seem like a failure if you don't go to college. Yeah. And. It just, yeah, I just, that for me was, my limitation was being limited on what I can do and what I can pursue, learn, and whatnot. Got it. And so obviously the traditional classroom kind of environment is not right for you.
Yeah. It's that cookie cutter, you know, you are, you are either this or you're nothing. Kind of rubbish. Right. And and so that's, I think that's what you meant when you said that it's not really, the traditional environment is not really for you. Right? Is that what you meant? Yeah. Okay. And then you spent a few years self learning.
You then did an associate's degree. Tell us about why that seemed [00:07:00] like the right thing for you to do then. I'm, I'm no shade. Of course it was the right thing in many senses, you know? But Tell us about your reasoning, your thinking at that time. Yeah, so throughout the time, I would say about. About two to three months.
I really kind of just dabbled into coding. I really enjoyed at that time and I was really debating on a bootcamp or going to school. Okay. Some sort of education. So I decided to go to the technical college kind of close by. It wasn't, I. That much of a price difference compared to boot camps. Yeah.
Also, I had to work full-time, so being able to go to school, I was able to go part-time for that. Everything was online. Yeah. And for the degree, to be honest with you, just having that degree. So was it a psychological thing for you or was did you think it was gonna help you in some way? I thought it was gonna help me.
Just the, just the degree mo most part. And you know, what they taught and things like that. Looking back [00:08:00] at it, everything that I've learned was kind of outdated. I don't use, I consider myself more self-taught because everything I do use now and hear this all the time. Yeah. It's all self-taught and it's all, yeah, and I was doing that throughout going to school.
Working full time and then, yeah. Yeah. So and so, okay, so the, you did the associate's degree you know, and then at some point in time you also decided, you know, I think you're listening to Brian's podcast, and then you found out about me, and then you decided to join the, the Inner Circle program. Now, I gotta ask you, man, you've already clearly demonstrated commitment.
You've been doing this for, a year or two at this point in time, you're clearly working full-time and doing the associate degree, you've researched the bootcamps, you've thoughtfully eliminated them as an option. You're being incredibly intentional. It's been what, a couple of years now since you first started dabbling.
Maybe two to three years, I think so. Okay. So that's quite a long time when you think about it, right? Mm-hmm. So you're clearly showing commitment.
You're clearly showing a sticktuitiveness that, you know, ultimately spells for success. You've [00:09:00] invested money, you've invested time, you've sacrificed a lot of your personal time. Why did you want to join the the Inner Circle program? Like why? Yeah. At this point in time, from your point of view, so listening to you and Brian, you guys have really accomplished what I'm trying to do.
You know, you guys are not just software, really successful software engineers and have done great things within the industry, but you also, both of you have a great mindset. As well as you have your guy, your own side businesses, you have accomplished a lot of things and you resemble on in things that I want to achieve in life.
Okay. And, and why is that important to you, Miguel? Why is it important for you in your thinking? 'cause you know you're still starting out in that journey. Why did you feel it was important to learn from people who've got the kind of life you want? What was that? Not many people think of that. Yeah.
For me it was surrounding myself with individuals [00:10:00] that have the lifestyle that I want. I can relate more, build more connection, like more deeper connections, and they're able to pass down their knowledge. On things that I am trying to achieve and Got it. Yeah. So, yeah. So you're saying, so you, you know, you, you realize both of us, you know, have an engineering career.
Both of us transitioned careers from other things into engineering at a late stage, you know, and we have a, this coaching business in the side, we still work as engineers. And so what were you. I mean, you'd already learned quite a lot of code at this point in time, I think. 'cause when you joined the program and I baselined your your, your coding, you were definitely an intermediate level.
Like there was still a long way to go. I thought before you'd be truly competitive in the market. And I think, you know, you're obviously very close to that now, but from your point of view, what else were you hoping to get out of the program? Definitely for sure. For me, it was learning to stay relevant.
So like if layoffs happen, you get fired, being able to bounce [00:11:00] back into another job fairly soon, fairly quickly, not struggling with that. Just networking connections, make, building relationships and just kind of having more of that like. Personal one-on-one mentorship. That is a really big one for me.
Being able to reach out to you or Brian whenever I have questions or need help or if I need something like some code reviews or anything like that. Having that guidance is a huge part, especially if you're going the self-taught route. Having at least a mentor or some people that you can reach out to and ask questions and guide you along the way goes a very long way.
Yeah. And you've also mentioned a couple of times that mindset is important to you. Again, not many people realize how important it is. And as you know, in the program, we spend a long time building the non-technical skills Yeah. In the intensive phase before we unleash the technical skills on you. Do you think that's a good system?
Do you think that works for you? You know, what would you say are the benefits or the disbenefits of doing it that way? [00:12:00] Yeah, I. I strongly agree with that approach. I think it's very hard for someone to go the self-taught route or just learn to code, really do anything in life, achieve any goals or anything like that without having a proper mindset.
Yeah. Thinking, right? Yeah. And especially having that long-term goal aspect that long-term. Mindset thinking long term understanding that things don't come quick, you know, things take time. And just having that grit and just being self-discipline and just really just working through it and oh, it's, a lot of this is self-improvement.
It's, you know, you are not gonna be perfect at the start. Yeah. But it just gradually No, and you, and we gotta change. And I keep telling people, I've said this in my podcast several times, that your career won't change unless you change. Exactly. And you've seen this in your own journey, like just how much of changes had to happen, which is, you know, in all, in all good things, like changes you'd want, you know, that you'd want your kids, that you want for people you love and you see in yourself.
It's great. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge you a little bit now, Miguel, because. You talked about long-term [00:13:00] thinking. Yes. But you also said something really interesting about two minutes ago about, you know, one of the things that was important to you is, you know, if you do get laid off and that's gonna happen to, I reckon it's gonna happen to, it's happened to me a couple of times.
It, it's gonna happen to everyone. That's just the world we've lived in for decades now. Right. So. You said bounce back quickly without struggling too much, but at the same time, you talk about long-term thinking and grit, right? Yeah. How do you reconcile those two things? Like there's a deep psychological phenomenon of why that, you know, you've said those two things that appear to be contradictory, but how do you reconcile that?
So can you elaborate a little bit? I'm kind of. Yeah, sure. No, so, so for example let, let me rephrase the question. This way we know that long-term thinking is important. Mm-hmm. We know that grit is important. Yeah. And if you got laid off, that's when you need the grit. Mm-hmm. That's when you need long-term thinking.
But that's when we are most motivated to want short-term reprieve or solutions in thinking, oh, I want get a job really quickly. But there's a problem. We don't control the market. Yeah. Right Now you can bounce back. [00:14:00] At regular speed, you can bounce back at tennis Federer speed or you can bounce back in slow motion.
But ultimately a bouncing back and not all of it has to do with you. A lot of it has to do with the market. So how do you, how do you feel about the fact that grit requires you to be okay with a slow bounce back? 'cause that's when you have grit. Yeah. Definitely. I would say I. It's, it's more so like, I wouldn't say like bouncing back fast would be like within a week or two weeks, I would say, like a month or three months. Being able to have that options not giving up, you know, you're gonna fail a lot of interviews, you're gonna get a lot of rejections, but being able to build the networks and the connections over time and constantly learning and improving on your skills and staying relevant within the market.
Doing your research and things like that, you're gonna, you're gonna stand out far further than someone who gets laid off and does none of that. Yeah. Is just content with their [00:15:00] job, thinks they're gonna be there forever, doesn't improve at all, and then gets laid off. And then they're gonna have so much, they're gonna have a much harder time 'cause they did none of those.
Want that Beautifully put. And I keep telling people, like I, I'm not a big fan of the consider networking because most people, when they think of networking, what they end up doing is, Hey, I'm Zubin. I work here and here who you, you know, let's, let's exchange like emails or LinkedIn or whatever. Right? But the reality is this, it doesn't matter how many people you know.
Yeah. What matters is how many people know you and think you can do the job. There are two things there.
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What matters is how many people know you and think you can do the job. There are two things there.
Yeah. Right. So the fact that you suddenly picked up a hundred business cards at a conference doesn't mean that you're networked. Mm-hmm. It means diddly squat, to be honest. I keep training you guys on this.
Be highly credible. It's not enough to know people, it's not enough to connect with people. You've gotta be very credible in their eyes so that they have no doubt that you can do the job. Correct. That takes time and a lot of effort outside of the job. Yeah. Right. And do you see the value in that now that we've sort of been doing it for months and months and months?
Like, do you see the value of that in your own life? Oh, absolutely. Yes. Cool. So where, where do you think, where do you think, I mean, okay, let me, let me rephrase that question. So what do you think is most exciting to you about your [00:17:00] future now? What are you most excited about? What I'm really excited about is not being limited. I feel like software engineering you can really do a lot of things and pursue a lot of things. You can achieve a lot in software engineering. I, and that's one of my biggest things that I look forward to, is just not being limited to something. So, yeah.
Oh, that's beautiful man. And that's like full circle. So clearly that value of yours not being limited is a huge value. And, and here's another question that I like to ask a few people. What, what, looking back on your time in the Inner Circle program and, and all the progress you made there, and you know, you, I mean you are obviously you are working in the capacity, you're doing an internship at the moment as an engineer.
And so you've been able to apply a lot of the lessons there. Looking back, what do you think? What was the surprising thing about the program that did you, that you did not expect, but which you're glad was part of the program?
What I, what I didn't [00:18:00] expect was it was the eight week intensive phase and how intense it was. Really how in depth you make us really go on. Yeah. Our goals, ambitions, our insecurities, you know, doubts that we may have. Things like that. Really going in depth and understanding on why am I nervous, why do I have doubt?
Things like that. Like that was extremely helpful because I personally have never done that before. I've never really run in depth on fears that I may have and doubts and why I feel this way and whatnot. So that was really good. And, and so if I were to say, 'cause a lot of people are like, oh, we don't need this.
And if I were to say, fine, I'll take it outta the program, what would you say? Don't, don't do that. ' cause people need to build a lot of, like, people have to have that right mentality before going in into learning this skill because it's not a get rich quick scheme . You're not going to become an engineer in three, [00:19:00] six months.
It's not the reality of it. It's gonna take a long time. And you need to have that self-discipline, that understanding, that mindset when you're going into this. And so people need to prepare themselves and understand that this is what it takes. So, yeah, I definitely would never get rid of it. Just continue.
Yeah. No, I wasn't going to because I, I would be inauthentic and untrue to myself if I felt that anyone can succeed without thinking correctly. Correct. Because thinking happens before actions and decisions, and our life is a sum of all the decisions we make. And the reason why people jump around coast to course due tutorial, tutorial, new framework, new language, they so overwhelmed by information is because their, their thinking is wrong.
Mm-hmm. And if you don't fix that. You. There's no point giving someone the perfect car if they don't have a roadmap. Yeah, it doesn't matter. You need the roadmap, you know, and that starts with the mind, right? So, look, I'm, I'm glad I'm glad you think I should keep it. 'cause I, I'm not getting rid of it.
But, you're done with that now and [00:20:00] you're already working in the profession and from here on, like, I keep telling you guys, get your foot in the door, then set, realign your sights. What's next? What's the bigger goal? , something to just finish off on for you and I, Miguel, but.
Compared to before you were in the program and now, how do you view your own goal setting and, you know, the defining which mountain to climb next? What's changed for you with that?
For me, especially keeping in mind that it's such a big value for you to not limit yourself. Like what does that unlock for you?
I, my, my goals have like. I feel more confident in my goals especially achieving them with the things that you've taught. Especially when it comes to like goal planning and like setting. I've taken like the tools and the resources like you, like you've taught us and shown like how to really,
set goals aside and really narrow down and attack them and accomplish them and being more consistent and helping with that. I just feel more confident with everything now being in program. And is that, is that a, a, a [00:21:00] different feeling from what you were used to or how, why is it important for you personally, Miguel, to feel confident about your plan?
Plan? Yeah. Learning the skills that you kind of taught. Just, I've never really considered things like that. Kind of just going on my own separate path. Wasn't too sure, you know, but just being like in this program overall gave me more confidence and really put me in a in a path for success that I really just strongly believe in.
That's wonderful to hear because most people quit too early because they run out of confidence before they run out of opportunity. Yeah. That's just how it is.
Now one
last thing from you, I guess, is. If you had the opportunity to influence other people who are walking in, in Miguel's shoes, let's say two years ago, you know, maybe starting out, maybe tried a few things. 'cause the program covers, you know, people got zero coding to people like you who've done a little bit before you came here.
We've got lots of ex bootcamp people come through as you've seen. Now that now that you have the opportunity to influence people and [00:22:00] encourage them , what would you say to them today about anything?
It doesn't have to be about the program, about just pursuing that dream?
Network, reaching out to people. That is my biggest one. The reason why is because. You won't know who you'll meet and connect with and the doors that it will lead and bring, like for my internship, I got that internship through networking.
Yeah. I've built mentors. Everybody gets it. Yeah. Correct. You only get the opportunities. Yeah. Sorry, sorry. Just repeat that last bit. No, I've like met so many software engineers throughout my learning journey that are in the industry through networking. You know, I go in my job to people. I like, just I talk to people about what I'm doing, what I'm pursuing, and they're like, oh.
I know someone who is in software engineering, and that's how I get connected. So don't shy away, just connect And yeah, you'll be surprised on the doors and the opportunity, and I'm not surprised that people want to help you, Miguel, because you, you, you go to [00:23:00] great lengths to build your own credibility.
You're not just a, a freeloader, like a leech. You're not just asking for handouts. You don't, you, you are very thoughtful. You put in a lot of effort. You know, and you kind of, you earn the right to open certain doors just through that. Yeah. And people always wanna help someone who's earned that right.
What you do, I would say is definitely not networking. It's part of the class. I agree. It's part of networking as a concept. But what you do is, is not the shallow networking you do the deep relationship building. Oh yeah. You know, and we, and we really, really emphasize that in the program as well.
Alright man, look, that's wonderful. I think you're gonna be an inspiration to lots and lots and lots of people, so don't stop giving back. When you get to the top, throw the ladder down behind you that others can follow, it's really important. Mm-hmm. Because it's a freaking lonely journey, man.
And there's so much BS out there in the marketing world, right? Like, we talk about it in the program all the time. So, keep going. Very proud of what you're doing, and Brian and I and the entire community are here for you anytime you need you know, but the way you are going, I think, you know, in 20 years you're gonna exceed your, your own vision of yourself.
And that's the most fun thing. So, you know, keep going [00:24:00] man. I appreciate it. Thank you. Of course. You got it. Okay. All right, well, I think
we've taken a lot of time in this evening, so thank you, Miguel, for joining us on the show. Really, really appreciate it. Really appreciate your thoughtful responses as well. You take care, man, and we'll see you next time. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it.
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