ESTD Matt McIvor
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Matt McIvor StreamYard: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Easier Said Than Done podcast. And I'm very excited today to have Matt, Ava on the show today. Now Matt's a very funny guy. Hopefully he'll put on a real show for you. I dunno. No pressure, Matt. But Matt's one of our students at the parity in a Circle program has got a really interesting background, has done a top-rated bootcamp before.
Works in, in California and has been one of the strongest contributors to the program and got a lot out of it. Worked really hard. I gave him a lot of S.H.I.T for it, the program just to him. 'cause Matt's also a dad and so he's a very conscientious dad. And he's, he's, one of those people, you listen to him and you're like, okay, I've got no excuses 'cause this guy's able to handle it all.
So why can't I, so, Matt, thanks for taking the time. Welcome to the show, man. Yeah. Thank you for having me. That is a wholehearted endorsement and I still don't have it wrapped around my, my head. But yeah, hi happy to be on the, the podcast. But yeah, I, I, I still don't feel like I have it figured out, as far as the, nobody does transition, but nobody does.
The transition's a hard thing. I mean, you, you're almost there, so, why don't you tell [00:01:00] people a little bit about yourself, a little bit of your story when you started learning to code, if you're happy, sharing what you do for a living, what you were doing for a living, et cetera.
Sure, sure. So for almost 10 years now, I've been working as a, a financial analyst for a university in California. And I wanted to kind of change direction into software engineering because I was more interested in building things and, and having a kind of a, a quick. Turn around like, on what I was actually implementing.
And I like, I like, I don't know, engineering and, and building. And I, I finished a bootcamp let's see, two years ago which was a fantastic bootcamp. I, I did learn a lot. I. But it was, I, I felt like I finished the bootcamp and then I was kind of off on my own. As far as where to apply. You have a handful of personal projects, but nothing much kind of under your belt.
And then I feel like I didn't really have a, a strong grasp of what it actually meant to be a software engineer.
INTRO
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Welcome to Easier Said Than Done with [00:02:00] me, Zubin Pratap, where I share with you the tens of thousands of dollars worth of self development that I did on my journey from 37 year old lawyer to professional software engineer. The goal of this podcast is to show you how to actually do those things that are easier said than done.
Matt McIvor StreamYard: I finished a bootcamp let's see, two years ago which was a fantastic bootcamp. I, I did learn a lot. I. But it was, I, I felt like I finished the bootcamp and then I was kind of off on my own. have a handful of personal projects, but nothing much kind of under your belt.
And then I feel like I didn't really have a, a strong grasp of what it actually meant to be a software engineer. I was, mm-hmm. I was pretty good at the handful of personal projects and the stack that were used, which is full stack JavaScript. But yeah. And then after the birth, birth of my son which was fantastic, but it's kind of set me back a year as far as being diligent in applying and interviewing and, and coding on the [00:03:00] side.
I was a little aimless and I was happy to hop on. Zubin's I, I guess roadmap. Also his, his story resonated with me because he was 37 at the time of his career change. I am 37 currently, so I figured it was kind of a good fit there. And yeah, it's, it's, you can refer to me as your, I'm right here, so you can sort of just say, you, you, yeah.
I, it's funny, I'm imagining. Speaking to a, an audience, to another audience. Yeah, I can, I can tell you're, you're totally rehearsing for the interview. So, I mean, and that's a lot, man, like is life can get in the way sometimes. And, when I did your baselining, when I was reviewing the code, when, when bringing into the program and I was trying to figure out where to start you off from it was clear that you were quite strongly what I would call code literate.
Mm-hmm. But, far away from being ready for an engineering job, mm-hmm. And I think that the easiest way to help people understand what that means is like, Matt and I, we speak English really well, no problems. Mm-hmm. We understand English really well. We are very English literate.
We can read, we can write, we can write, essays we need to, but if we had to go from here to [00:04:00] becoming a published author. Yeah. We are gonna flounder a bit. That's a totally different, yeah. And I think that's the difference between learning to code and and, and getting hired in a highly competitive software engineering world for a good salary.
Choosing the right kind of work that sets you up for growth in the long term is kind of like wanting to be on the best seller list. Not just, not just writing high school essays. So, and that's what I encourage more people to keep in mind. So in, in your specific example, looking back now, Matt, because you've obviously been trying for a few years and the baby came along, you obviously had a very positive experience at the bootcamp.
But why do you think it didn't deliver you all the way to your goals? What do you think was missing? I. I, I think the gap for me was the experience, uh mm-hmm. Having experience. I mean, you, you, it's funny. You finish a, a bootcamp and then you find yourself, okay, I've been applying for this job for maybe a few months, but they are, they say, tell me about yourself. Tell me about your experience. And you really have nothing up until then, except for a handful of projects which is understandable. But I would say between finishing [00:05:00] bootcamp and to where I am now, which I feel night and day much stronger I think doing projects on the side.
Currently I'm working for two startups on the side, and I think having just this. It's, it's, it's weird. It's like not a, it's not a hard and fast like boom. I have experience like, 'cause you're not, you're not just gonna get hired immediately for like, no, no experience. So when you have these kind of 10 hours a week.
Side, project side startups I think that kind of gradually grows your experience and now all of a sudden I have, I have recruiters reaching out to me, which is a fantastic place to be at. Right. And so can I ask, 'cause you said night and day difference between now and when you finish the bootcamp, what changed for you?
I, I think what I've done in the last year, I don't know if this is, I mean actually I do think this is directly from your program. I is, I have, I have this experience with these side [00:06:00] projects, which are startups.
I'm, I'm working with groups, like teams of people, one team and a different team. And that gives me a lot of sort of examples to speak to when I interview, the whole star method. There's. All of a sudden I have dozens of scenarios and tell me about a time when type of stories and you also know that you should be looking out and collecting those.
'cause we talk about that a lot in the program. You spend a entire module on that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then the program itself is just. Lights a fire under your butt to actually keep working, keep, keep pushing. I think before the program, when I was in the gap between the bootcamp and starting the program, it's really hard to know if you're going in the right direction.
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Matt McIvor StreamYard: I think before the program, when I was in the gap between the bootcamp and starting the program, it's really hard to know if you're going in the right direction. And I think that was for me, the biggest struggle. I'm like, yeah, I have a couple hours a day. To dedicate to like this career transition, [00:08:00] I would need to know that it's in the right direction. 'cause I would hate to waste another year just pursuing the wrong direction or, okay. This course didn't help me whatsoever.
Oh, oh man. The tragedy of the endless courses. 'cause people think they need another course, more focus, more priority, less course, more priorities and more focus. So, I guess, looking back, what, what changes have you noticed in yourself, and what was the actually, you know what, let me start with another question.
Looking back at yourself and therefore extrapolating to most people, 'cause I think most people would relate to your experience. What do, what do people get wrong about the entire transitioning your career to become a professional coderr story? What does everyone seem to be getting wrong about it?
It's, it's, it's, that's funny. And I think I almost came to this revelation almost today. I feel like, and it's, it's like the last few weeks for me. I think in my head before I. Like when I was doing the bootcamp before I kind of started your program and even kind of during your program, in my head I'm like, okay, [00:09:00] once I get a W2 for a software engineering position, once I've, my 40 hours a week are not doing financial analyst work, it's doing software engineering work, then I've made it.
Like it's a binary zero to one. Yeah. And it really is more of a, just a gradual transition like. I, I am doing my 40 hours a week as a financial analyst, but on the side I have these other endeavors, this, this pursuit, and then I feel like it's, it's just I'm falling into software engineering now.
I feel like I don't know, these last few weeks having re now receiving recruiter calls, I'm like, oh my goodness. Like maybe I actually am a software engineer at some point. What, what, so what, what's changed in the last few weeks that recruiters are interested in you and you are still a, like in, you're a newbie engineer.
So this entire thing at all, newbie, there's, there's no, junior jobs if you are getting calls from interview recruiters, how many examples do people need? So, again, compared to who you were two years ago and now. Hmm. What, how would you advise someone who like, oh, I'm not getting opportunities, or, I'm really [00:10:00] scared about entering this industry, or, I want to be a software engineer.
What advice would you give them about what that actually means that they probably never heard before? I. That they probably never heard before is the hard part, because I feel like I might be just saying platitudes, but to be honestly kind of consummately optimistic, yeah. And just keep your GitHub commits going.
I mean, just keep coding every day. I, I really do feel like my, my GitHub history, I feel like the fact that it's long at this point and that absolutely started with your program. I feel like that has helped immensely. And then my LinkedIn, why, why tell people why that matters? Well, 'cause then it tells, it, it signals to recruiters who may or may not even speak any of your languages, that you're actually living and breathing all of this, this coding.
And then I do think having these side projects, side like, startups, things being current, like they're present on my LinkedIn. So like my LinkedIn right now shows my day job. A hundred years [00:11:00] ago until present. And then also these startups up until present. So I think, I think recruiters look at that and they're like, okay, he's literally coding currently.
This is why you're getting the results, and this is why I wanted you to, so to speak on the podcast, is people just obsess about just writing the code and, and they don't realize that... okay, would you agree with the statement Learning to code is far, getting far easier than becoming a professional programmer.
Yes, certainly. Okay. Would you think that learning to code is enough to become a professional programmer? Certainly not. Now. These, to me, are the two big points that most people get wrong, right? Everyone obsesses about the learning to code stuff. What they don't realize is to get hired, you need to de-risk yourself in the eyes of the market.
Mm-hmm. One way, all the ways you've talked about are ways to de-risk yourself. Mm-hmm.
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Matt McIvor StreamYard: Everyone obsesses about the learning to code stuff. What they don't realize is to get hired, you need to de-risk yourself in the eyes of the market. Now, are there better coders than you? Almost definitely. Right. Are there better coders than me? I'm, I'm, I've met them every single day I meet 'em. Right. Doesn't mean that's gonna be enough. Mm-hmm. And I actually, sorry. I was just gonna say, I have, I have a, a friend who's a software engineer, much better coder than me, and he doesn't de-risk himself whatsoever.
He has actually 10, 12 years of experience and he just got laid off [00:13:00] a month ago. But he doesn't have a LinkedIn, like, doesn't have a GitHub. I'm, and he's, last month or so struggling to get rehired and I'm. Help 'em along the way, but I, yeah, yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And how much of this stuff about career building did we talk about?
Like, did I not emphasize this a lot during the program? And also, let's be honest, most people get grumpy at me 'cause I don't start them off with the code on day one. I spend a lot of time talking about this stuff. Yeah. What do you think of that approach? Do you think that approach works? Do you think it's the wrong approach?
I'm really open to that feedback, no, I've, I very, I very much do. I, I've, and I feel like you've used this example a lot of like, oh, everybody knows how to get abs. It's like, yeah, you do. It's just, it's, it's just the hard work. But really is a mentality shift a, a, a mindset shift.
So I think your first is probably, I. It feels long, the first phase of your program, it feels long. It was the two months, but it's really like the shortest, quickest part. I think maybe 'cause it's like [00:14:00] weekly deep dives and then all of a sudden you're just on your execution phase. Yeah, yeah. To the code, to the coding.
It's. It really is not rocket science. It's just perpetual effort. That's the hard part. For, for an unreasonably long time past the point where you secretly hoped you were gonna succeed miraculously. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I was hoping to have a job six months ago and, but now that I've, you've only been in the program now, what?
Four or five months. So you've already made a lot of progress in that time, but you know, you've been trying for over a year now. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, you're not far, like obviously if you're getting recruit interest, which, we talk about regularly for the accountability check-ins. Then it's just a question of trying to double those.
Yeah. And then failing as many interviews as you can. I also know, had I not joined your program, started your program, I feel like I would be exactly where I was before the program started, which was, why do you say that? Because you, you're quite a hard worker, so why do you feel, feel that? I think it was easy for me to start something not see results and kind of [00:15:00] let it fizzle out.
I think, oh, okay. Interesting. I, yeah, I think I, I, I had joined a couple smaller, like nothing to your scale, but really like little like side programs of, here's a few hundred dollars and do this little course and I would get halfway through it, not feel like I was going in the right path.
And then just let it fizzle out. So. Easy. And then you do that five times and a half years gone by. Right, exactly. Yeah. That's, and that's the big theory, which is fair. And I think, as at our age, I mean I'm obviously older than you, but when I was transitioning same, same age as you, that that really counts against people.
Like, I think, I, I don't think people fully appreciate how exponentially harder it gets. By the time you hit mid 30. Mm-hmm. And that's a reality. No one can change it, but you, what you can do is change your tactics and, and strategies around it. But you said something really interesting, which is, you feel like you're not on the right path and then you change, right?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I get this all the time, Matt. So, looking back, why do people, in your [00:16:00] experience, why is there this temptation to jump around, go for the shiny object? Where do you think that comes from? Oh, it's the, it's the dopamine quick fix of starting a new course, starting a new program.
I mean, I, I, even throughout all of schooling, I remember, being excited on the first day of class, and then when it's the last few weeks of class, you're like, can this class please be over? Yeah. But if you could, switch classes immediately, you might have yeah. So yeah, I think it's that. I think it's the quick fix. But yeah, the novelty, the excitement need for something new and the, the, the shiny object. So why, in your opinion now looking back, is that such a dangerous way to do it? cause you'll do everything half-assed. You'll do everything to 10%, 20% completion, and then you'll have nothing, master.
And what's the big, what's the big cost for that for you? Time I. A hundred percent. Ah, yeah. That's it. That's, it's not even, I mean, at least for, at least, at least for me, I, I feel like I started like, I'm 37. I feel like I started this [00:17:00] transition at 32, and then I, dude I had two, yeah, 32 for me, too.
Yeah. That's like in the back of my head. I'm like, gosh, it's, I can't have another five years go by. I can't ... this next like six months, like for me, I'm like, this is when, like, needs to happen.
Needs to, this just needs to happen. Well, I, I'm pretty sure we'll have you on in a few months again with your first role, like, I think. You're already on, you, you're getting the recruiter interest. You are, you're, you're building the, you're de-risking yourself systematically. Like, like we show you how you've got all the support from Brian and me.
You've got also the handful of other people mm-hmm. That we have. 'cause we work with so few people. There's a handful of people who are there cheering for you. And also now you know what works and what doesn't work. Mm-hmm. You're not distracted by the dopamine, you. If anything, I've killed that in you guys by making you so disciplined.
So, I, I kind of took all the fun out of it, didn't I? Yeah, well, and I was, I was gonna say actually with, with the, well, no, don't worry. There's still plenty of fun. I, but with the, with the recruiter interest, it's, it's really nice because all of a sudden, like. I know you have [00:18:00] kind of in your head like, oh, let's interview for companies.
You're not enamored with your, that's not your top tier a-list companies. Like, let's get some B's and C's in there like that you may or may not want because I say yes to pretty much every recruiter that reach out as you should, as you should. And then it really does just. Force you to practice interviewing.
And it's, it really, I don't know. It makes it, it makes it feel a lot easier. 'cause I remember right after the bootcamp, I got a handful of interviews and I would lose sleep and stress over every single one. And now that I'm getting interviewed two, three times a week, it's really nice. I mean, I mean, it was one of the positions I interviewed for this week is, it's a.
Six month contract to hire. So like even if they gave it to me, I wouldn't probably take it. That's a little too risky for me. Yeah. But to have the interview and to have the, the telling of your story to just a new, fresh face is, is really good experience. I don't know, I like a lot and, and every time you do it, you get better at it.
For the next one, you learn by, through contact. Which is why we, we [00:19:00] spend so much time in market development in the program. So, and by the way, when you, when you. Explore that six month option. Let's get on the phone and, and walk through it together because a couple ways to negotiate some things like that that could de-risk it for you as well.
Mm-hmm. That could also offer the company some benefits. So, we can talk about that tactically as, and when that those things arise. But I mean, do you see how from here on, it's just a matter of time, like mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that's, I think that's the optimistic part that I was absolutely. Not optimistic.
Before I started the program, I was pessimistic and like, shoot, I spent 20 grand on a bootcamp and a thousand hours. And I don't feel like it's gonna happen and now I feel like it's gonna happen. So, and now I do feel like it's a matter of time, which is nice. Also. Can I just say, I can't believe you spent twice the price of the program on a bootcamp and like the, our program's like a year long.
That's insane. Yeah. Like we, we are way too cheap. I'm gonna tell Brian, bump the price. And it's, it's, I mean, money is one thing, but the time commitment was massive as well. It was Tuesday, Thursday nights six to [00:20:00] 9:00 PM and Saturdays nine to 2:00 PM 9:00 AM to 2:00 PM for like nine months. It's not a small thing.
No. So, well, I mean, we, we ask for a lot of time too for the 12 months. But we make it flexible for you and we flex to you. Yeah. But, but we can do that 'cause we work with so few people. So that's part of the strategy that we use. But man, look, this is super exciting. Can I ask you, what's most exciting for you about the future now, standing where you are now compared to two years ago?
Personally, I think. I am optimistic that five years from now I'm in a totally different career, career track versus five years ago I was where I am.
And I don't know, I feel like, you know that TV show severance, like it's kind of feel like that in five years if I am in five years where I am now. It's just, there's, yeah. It's, it's yeah, it's, one of the things, again, I, it's, it's, I think we've talked about in the program also, but one of the life changing moments I had is, I think it was Tony Robbins or something, when he, he pointed out, he is like, this is why I spent so much time on the goal setting stuff, the clarity, the not star [00:21:00] principle, all of this stuff in the, in the program, he said, if you don't know exactly where you want to be in five years, you're already there.
Dude that scared the pants off me because like you, for almost 15 years, that kind of just let life take me where it's going, where the river goes. And I wasn't swimming anywhere particularly, yeah. And that scared the pants off me. 'cause I'm like, what? Hang on. So everything that's ahead of me kind of looks like what's behind me.
That's not what I want. Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. It's like you need to put the carrot wherever you need to pursue instead of just hanging out. I don't know. Yeah, because it's really, I feel like when you're younger, in your twenties, you're just kind of getting by and everything's new and exciting, but like if you blink like a decade will go by, it really will.
What, when does all this time go, Matt? Where does it go? I know I'm gonna blink and be 50, so I just want to be where I want to be at that point. 'cause I'm gonna wake up and. My toddler will be 12. Yeah. It's gonna happen. Dude, I just turned 44 a couple of weeks ago and I was like, mm-hmm. [00:22:00] How did this happen?
Yeah. When did this happen? Where was I when all this happened? Right. Because I'm like, I, I, like, I was 37 when I started, seriously committing to transitioning to code. And 38 when I did it, I'm like, it's really, it's been six years. Yeah. And then in that time, all kinds of things have happened and it was.
All kind of things that I wanted to didn't happen even though I tried. Like that's life. You win some, you lose some. Yeah. But as long as you're just making progress towards your goal, it feels okay. But you're right, man. Like it goes in the blink of an eye, yeah. Like big chunks of time.
And we had what, eight decades? At the moment, I don't know if I wanna live longer than that. Four and a half are done. I'm like, are you serious? I've got three and a half ticks in this box left. Like that's crazy, mm-hmm. Now I'm glad. I'm glad you think about time in that way too, man. 'cause it's the one, everyone's so obsessed with the money stuff.
I'm like, dude, it's the time stuff, I can't borrow time from a bank, but I sure as hell can get a 6% mortgage. No problems, yeah, exactly. Just, it's not even the same thing. All right, man. Well, look, I'm super excited for the fact that that's what you are, that's [00:23:00] what you're thinking about, that where you see yourself in five years, enthuses you.
It's exciting. It gives meaning for you and your family. Hopefully Diddy's The dog is still around then. I don't know. Hopefully it's, it's nice to see her. Oh, there she is. Well, hopefully she'll be around in five years too. Oh yeah. Well, she's one years old, so she'll probably be hopefully around for Ted.
Unless that, and so you better build that, that app that you were talking about, about the rattlesnakes in the area. 'cause the did, yeah. You gotta do that to protect all. But dude, thank you for taking the time. I really appreciate you taking the time. I, once again, hats off. Kudos and respect for the amount of work and commitment and the courage.
'cause when we met and you joined the program, or you think you're joining the program at that time, and this is just before I baselined, you hadn't even baselined you, you were quite cynical and dejected because of everything you'd gone through and you were like. I remember you telling me, but are you sure I can do this?
Yeah, I, you asked me that. I'm like, yeah, man. And you like, I'm 36. I'm like, yeah, I know. That's okay. Oh man, I was such a baby back then. Such a baby. Look how you, how you so mature now. Yeah. But, but that's [00:24:00] the truth, man. Like hope was, hope was faint for you, you in your role. Yes, certainly.
Yeah. And I was like, no, of course you can do it, but it's gonna take. You're gonna have to pay a price for it. There's mm-hmm. There's, this thing takes effort, yeah. And it's, it's not what social media says it is. Yeah. I, I think that's definitely the case. You just, it's, obviously you need to be willing to put in the effort and I think you help with the direction of the effort.
So as long as I'm directionally correct with my effort and the effort doesn't feel in vain, then all of a sudden you're kind of happy to make the effort. Correct, because that's how you travel anywhere. It's distance and speed, right? That's right. It's sort of direction and speed and so you, you, I can't do the speed for you.
I can't do the crunches for your abs, but I can tell you exactly what to do for your meal plan, which exercises and how often. Right. So, just. Seeing how far you come and how close you're, you're almost there. You're already getting all the, recruited interest in, in a so-called down market.
You're, you're doing a bunch of, sort of, freelancing gigs while working full-time gig. Mm-hmm. You, you're a father of a young toddler et cetera, and you obviously take time to stay here [00:25:00] and stuff. So if you were to look back, sorry, if you were to speak to somebody who is, who is today? In the same shoes that you were in, let's say two years ago, after your bootcamp or before your bootcamp, dejected not sure where you want from your life.
Mm-hmm. What message would you like to give them, because this is your opportunity to sort of throw the ladder down for who's coming after you. Well step one, call Zubin. Step two. Step two. No, I would say, I don't wanna say start a side project or start a side thing, but definitely keep your eyes open.
There's a thousand little startups that for, I mean, one of my startups pays, one of them doesn't pay. Don't, and I told 'em, to the one that pays, I was like, I could not actually care less about. The tiny amount of money that I'm getting from it. It really is about experience networking. Yeah.
It, it's, it's invaluable as a resume booster. So I, I really do think that's the key is like working on the sites for like committing code to actual repos, [00:26:00] building actual products on the side. I think that I think that helps a lot. I think that helps derisk you a. Oh, perfect. Alright. And, and is there a message of hope and inspiration you'd like to share?
Yes, definitely. Just stay hopeful, keep coding. Um hmm. I'm trying to think what other platitudes, but that may or may not resonate, resonate with me from two years ago, but here's an easy way to think about it. What advice would you give your yourself from two years ago? Join the, join the startups, like work, commit, like, not, not the open source stuff, but like find an actual group of people that are trying to build a thing.
Yeah. Have a kind of, yeah, yeah. And just, just put yourself out there. 'cause there's actually a lot of startups out there that are also when you can help you help when you don't. When you're busy, they're desperate for resources and nobody's applying for them. Yeah. And this is, this is as much do or die for them as it is for you.
And that's the kind of relationship you wanna start with. That's, that's how I started. It was a startup that was so high risk that nobody else wanted to join them. And I was so high risk that nobody else would wanna hire [00:27:00] me. 'cause I was, 38, what the hell do I know about code kind of situation.
Mm-hmm. And it was probably one of the top two jobs I've ever had in my life. Yeah. And it set me up to Google. Yeah, that's awesome. And you're, you're, you're just gonna learn a lot. You're gonna learn to meet a lot of interesting people. Yes. And yeah, add to your code stacks, dabble in different code stacks.
Don't be siloed in one particular stack or framework. Yeah. Stop obsessing about the tutorials and learning the new language instead be with coder so you can think like a coder, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Awesome, dude, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I'll let you go 'cause I know it's the evening for you.
But I appreciate you taking the time out to come, come on the show. And I'll see you around next time. Yes, thanks for having me. Thanks. Thanks again, Matt. You take care, man. Okay.
Outro
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