ESTD Mirko | ep 41
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[00:00:00] hey everybody and welcome back to the Easier Said Than None Podcast. Today I have with me one of the students from the Inner Circle Program, Mirko, who's based in California, in Los Angeles actually now Mirko and I have known each other a little while through the program and, Mirko life has taken interesting turns, has a very interesting background himself.
But most importantly, the reason I wanted Mko on the show is because. This guy's been through a lot. He's been through a lot back home in Europe. He is been through a lot, since he's come in the us. He's got a lot of hunger, a lot of drive, but at the same time, Mirko like many of us. Always having to ask difficult questions.
Do I really wanna do this? What do I really want? What are my real goals? Do I need to take care of my parents? Like all these real life things that nobody really talks about when it comes to hard things like learning a new skill, like coding, or what are we doing with their career? And so that's why I wanted Mirko on the show.
He's very open and honest about how difficult it is to make these life decisions. So Mirko, thank you for being on the show. I appreciate you taking out the time, man. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. Of course, no [00:01:00] problems. Now, I know you just got home after a long session of battling LA traffic, so I'm trying, gonna try and make this as you know, enjoyable for you as we can.
But why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, where you're from, the kind of work you do, what brought you to LA and stuff like that. I. Sure, I'll try to keep a short actually myself. I was born in Croatia back then was Yugoslavia. We moved in with my parents to Switzerland. And then I did everything in school.
Background. I did a job over there back in the days, or still is actually apprenticeship, so I'm a chemical technologist. I did military service in Switzerland, so all my biggest background is in Switzerland. And then from my current company, I got the chance to move over to the US as ASAP specialist in production planning.
So I moved over and then here right now I'm since 2018 in the us. I love it. California and sun. Perfect weather most of the time. And I went [00:02:00] through hurdles as well and had chances to take on some jobs where planner, our project manager, I was even the head of planning production planning in there.
And now I took another opportunity to go into project management more. So that's my current background overall. Great. Wow. Okay. So quite, quite an adventurer and I think you had also done so why did we, I guess. Then leads us to what brings you to the coding world or what rather made you interested in learning to, to code programs because we know that you don't necessarily want to become a software engineer.
INTRO
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Welcome to Easier Said Than Done with me, Zubin Pratap, where I share with you the tens of thousands of dollars worth of self development that I did on my journey from 37 year old lawyer to professional software engineer.
what brings you to the coding world or what rather made you interested in learning to, to code programs because we know that you don't necessarily want to become a software engineer.
You're open to it, but that's not [00:03:00] necessarily a goal. But you still decided that you wanna learn to code. In fact, I think you went to a very well known bootcamp as well before you came to me, right? So obviously this is important to you. Tell us a little bit about that. Where did that start? Why, why is it important?
What are you trying to achieve? Hmm. Yeah, it started when I was as the head of planning I found like kind of very, in that position it was like not supported that much. We went to that kind of COVID phase and it got like tied with money in the company and the support was very minimal and I felt it and I felt like, Hey, I don't wanna stay for years and years in that position.
On top was kind of also a barrier that I couldn't grow more. So I was like, lo looked around, was like, what else could I be, what could be my future? Then at that point, like all the bootcamp started up with coding. I was like, it sounds very, I. Good opportunity. And I was always interested back in the days putting PC together, always working with a laptop [00:04:00] and something on it.
And I was very interested. Mm-hmm. And then I started a little bit in that, like prior to bootcamps, like, FreeCodeCamp at the beginning it was like Right. Very interesting. It's like, this is what you can do with the code. Wow. So then I was like, looked into the bootcamp and I actually.
Before that I touched base with Zubin before then, and of course I did not have experience. I forgot That! That's right. Yeah. And I think I didn't have that experience. I was just a newbie, like I knew H-T-M-L-C-S-S-A little bit. So it's like, let me go through the code, the, I went to the bootcamp because it was back then very structured.
You went, you had some sprints and everything else. After the bootcamp you still have, I have still have some contacts with the the ones that are finished it, but my problem was and even still is, it's rushed. It, it feel like, yeah, I had a lot of knowledge, but at the end I was like, yeah, finish the project or product that what?
[00:05:00] I did not understand it fully. So then I, because this, it was moving too fast, is that what you mean? Rushed, like the learning, the teaching. Correct. It was like sprints most of the time, like two, three week sprints. Okay. And, and as, as everybody know, like HT M-L-C-S-S, it's kind of okay, but then when JavaScript comes up to the part, it's exponential.
And for me it was like, whoa, it's going really fast. And then I ended up React. I was like, okay, what is, what doing? Yeah. But then I, I was like kind of a little bit lost on it. It's like with that knowledge I go to. I felt not confident enough to go really out. So then I reached. At this time when you were doing your sprints and stuff, I'm guessing you were with bigger teams of people and all of you were doing the exact same thing.
Most of the time we were doing the exact same thing of the software engineering. Were the people a lot younger than you? 'cause I know Mirko you have a lot of experience behind you, so I'm guessing there were people lots younger than you, different parts of life. Did you all have the same goals or was like, do you know [00:06:00] the story of the other people or was everyone just told to do the exact same thing?
It was more about, we went through exact same thing. We went through that kind of sprints just to kind of finish it like. Most of the time I was more about, oh, I have to rush. Okay, let's finish it. And I can be honest here. I saw the GitHub, other people that were actually in front of me. It's like, lemme see how they did it.
Oh, I can just copy paste. So you copied. Yeah. Yeah. And I got to that point, kind of finished it, but that knowledge didn't stick too much. And then I reached out to those other peoples, but it still was kind of. Are they too ahead of me? And I, I got more kind of, more questions instead of answers. Hmm. So it's like, I, I, I don't know if this is the right thing or am I really good enough to for that?
Yeah. So you didn't feel ready, is that what you mean? Like at the end of this, you felt like you hadn't actually learned very much and you weren't ready for anything in the real world, is that right? Yeah. Correct. Got it. Okay. Like Nova, [00:07:00] they taught us, like they said, like, oh, here's creating, or here is additional part that you can kind of use and adapt or network.
But it was more like, whew, what should I answer? How should I answer, how should I approach that? It was more self-study and self-learning a lot. Mm-hmm. And it stopped after you kind of finished the bootcamp? The last, the coding pieces? Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Yeah. And so looking back, do you think learning to code is enough to become an engineer or do you even use it in a professional way?
Hell no. Hell no. Why is that? It's more than that. Like the coding part is just a technical, but, right now, even if my job right now at project management, you need to talk with people. You need to know the requirement. You need that human aspect that mm-hmm. Nobody's telling you about it. Like Right. E even networking.
Like what specifically? Like how should I touch, how should I approach, who do I need to contact It's [00:08:00] no, coding is not enough. No. Yeah. And so, I mean, I know you went to like one of the best bootcamps and you've obviously therefore showing that you're willing to invest yourself. And you know, it's, I think the bootcamp like twice the price of my program or whatever, but that, that's a separate thing.
But you are willing to invest in yourself. You're willing to invest time, money, effort, the three things that everybody has to, you're willing to invest all of them. You are working a full-time job. Why, why was learning to code important for you given that you've already got a very successful high earning career?
I put it this way, I, I see more and more that coding and everything around it, tech at AI and everything that comes up that's gonna be more and more important. Mm-hmm. So that important, see, like, kind of, I wanna feel important kind of one in a way. I wanna feel something that I can contribute on it.
'cause right now it's more about you contributing to a company, that product is sold to somebody. Mm-hmm. But I will always need that skill or be in a company. And for me it was always the. I'm little bit the guy, [00:09:00] like, I wanna have somebody that I can sell for myself. I wanna have a skill. Maybe even that's my dream, to have a company even to, Hey, that's what I'm selling to you guys.
Yeah. And if you're in a company that's not enough and that, that was like I'm, I was looking for something that I can use a skill and sell it to myself and like grow and showcase to the world. And that's all went with like, oh yeah, computer. Oh, software engineering, everything. What you touch is around coding having even right now this is yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. And and so, okay, you did the coding bootcamp and then what were you hoping to achieve at the end of the coding bootcamp? I mean, of course to get a job and then learn from that on the job to yeah. Be more and worse. Okay. So at that time you still wanted to be, you were thinking, oh, maybe I'll, I'll switch and become a software engineer.
Okay. And then when you joined, what made you speak to me? 'cause I know the first time we, you reached out, it [00:10:00] was before you decided to do the bootcamp. You decided to do the bootcamp, and then you came back and reached out to me again. Why, what, what were you wanting to achieve next? I wanted to more to kind of like if I have a, like, kind of have a mentor mm-hmm.
Who went through the same thing that I did because you, yeah. You've been a lawyer, you changed your careers. Mm-hmm. And in the bootcamp, yeah, there are multiple others, but they're doing the same thing as I and have different stuff and did not know what's gonna come. So that's why I was like, Hey, I think I need more a mentor. Coding part.
I think. Yeah, I can learn by itself, but yeah, how to talk, what to do, what else to look for that I can use and then get to the next step. Yeah. In fact, I went to and this was like before your coding bootcamp became big, so mine was 2018, I think there was another very big bootcamp that then just sort of lost its reputation.
But. In fact all the new bootcamps are different from who they were six years ago. Just shows how much has, you know, changed. But this was one of the top ones. And I left [00:11:00] after a week because I realized not a single one of the people, not my teachers, not the peers, had actually changed their career.
And I'm like, learning to code is not gonna be the hard part. Like getting your hiring manager, getting someone to even give you an interview when you don't belong in the career is so much harder. Right. So, right. So then, and then, yes, we ended up working, I remember speaking about what your goals were then and stuff like that.
And so looking back, 'cause. You know, Brian and I, now that we do the that now that we do the Inner Circle thing together, we have deliberately called ourselves the anti bootcamp, right? Like it's the opposite. What is your experience how would you describe the program and, you know, what, what, what were you hoping to get out of it when you joined our program?
I would say you are more I like kind of what you did before, mention it kind of, of that program itself. It's the inner circle. You have people the same kind of what are doing the same. Mm-hmm. And you're really like focusing on each individual of us, like we are giving feedback and you're going through each individual our problems, our like failures [00:12:00] or guiding us in a way.
audio CTA
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Hey, hope you're enjoying this episode. Listen, I bet you're tired of the social media BS. You're confused and overwhelmed. And all you want is for someone to just show you a clear path to a coding career. Right? We get it. My partner, Brian and I. We changed to code in our thirties and we can help you do it too.
Brian and I have done all sorts of engineering work from startups to Google, and now we've built an exclusive private mentorship program designed to get you from beginner to professional developer, whether you've done a coding bootcamp, you have a computer science degree, or you're starting from zero, it doesn't matter.
And you're really like focusing on each individual of us, like we are giving feedback and you're going through each individual our problems, our like failures or guiding us in a way.
That's way more important than finishing a project because everybody will understand the project itself. The code. Yeah. You can adapt, you can use right now [00:13:00] AI to make it better, but that human part that's nobody can tell you about. You don't have to go through yourself and somebody can help you through, so.
Right. Okay. And so, you know, you've, you went through the program, you've, you, you learned a lot. How do you feel about your own. Skills and your confidence and your understanding of how the, you know, the engineering world works. Where do you feel you are on that now? I think it's, I feel more confident and understand where we, like what's going, and I'm looking right now, even when I look for information yeah, there's a lot of out there YouTube like, yeah, I'm, every day I'm looking a little bit of YouTube and.
That that guy says something, AI is gonna take that. Like all that stuff, you're like, no. So overwhelming. That's not the full truth. Yeah, that's not it. And you pick, and when I had the point with you like it, it got it's kind of that's, sorry, BS or that's bs. That's bs. So you kind of looking through the right information [00:14:00] and that helped a lot for me too.
Like filter through stuff even to jobs that's like, Hey, this is BS that cannot be, so it helps help me a lot to kind of, yeah, that's the way to go. Mm-hmm. Instead of really like, oh, apply this or apply that, or apply this. Yeah. So I, I'm more analytical structure way to tackle stuff. Then before I would be like, I'll be like applying for every other job that I can see there.
Then we never hear back and we don't understand and we never learn. And we spend months and months of wasted opportunity, then we get discouraged and we think we are the problem when actually we just don't understand how the market works. Right? Like everything's easier when you know how things are done.
Mm-hmm. And that's the, that's the hard thing. So, you know, I guess it's a question I've asked a few other people also on this. What is the most unexpected slash surprising thing that you encountered during the program that you didn't know about before? It could be anything at all. So. The best part is people are willing to help you.
Like that was the first part, like [00:15:00] asking people or asking software engineers to, Hey, I have your problem, or connect. Let's connect. Yeah, that was great. One example from my part is even I had a former employee in my company. He left and he's right now a software engineer. He did CS degree. We had some conflicts in the company.
We're not the best friends, and I was like, let me try, let me reach out. Unbelievable. We went for a drink twice, actually. We stalked and we went through stuff. Like he told me, Hey look, this is about software engineering, about this and this. He helped me so a lot to understand it even more. Right? And I was like, this is amazing.
People are willing to help you here through if you really wanna reach and talk with them about it. And before the program, you didn't fully learn how to do that or what happened before the program? Like how did the program help with that? Before the program it was more like, Hey guys do you have a job I would like to get into, or What do you do here?
Or, I mean, never a real approach or [00:16:00] direct approach or like specific approach. And that was kind of always. They're not answering or they're not giving a response. What is that? Yeah, no, you need a strategy. It's like a marketing strategy. You need a plan, you need a strategy. You know how to, you need the tools, you know, all of that.
Interesting. And you know, now I, and I know you're still, you know, you, you are looking at project management and technical project management skills because you want to combine your software engineering with the existing management experience. How do you feel about. The kind of skills you have now.
'cause you did mention that one of the things you wanted when you were starting this two or three years ago was you wanted to you know, have the skills that are, that were in demand, that were useful, that other people wanted, you know, you wanted that, that, that ability to have that confidence. How do you feel having learned to code now, what does that mean for your career?
How do you feel about your career options? Mm-hmm. One part is, I mean, code itself, it gave me a kind of structure. Same thing as like when I went through your program, giving even more structure, even how to talk with people, and I'm [00:17:00] using that more and more often. Actually, my company.
Sometimes even don't wanna say it actually, but manipulate or guide them through that way that you want you, you need to influence at the workplace. Yeah, you have to. Yeah, exactly. And now it's like I'm use those skill few of them and it's like it helped me a lot and then even sometimes even conflicts that I feel like, okay, maybe the different approach and that.
Those conflicts. Not kind of conflict, but more like, no, how do I still get my, yes. And that's kind of what I learned from you as well. Like, okay, I still can get around to talk with people, to guide, influence them in a way. I had never had that before. I. And I'm using it right now through my project manager job and helped me a lot through to go through whole hurdles.
So, I learned, this is why I keep telling engineers as well, it's no longer enough to just know how to code 'cause it's engineering is not actually how they show in the movie is just you typing alone on the screen. Yes. A lot of your days spent there. But the reason you're doing that is because you've had to influence somebody to support a project, to support an [00:18:00] initiative, to support a sprint, to actually release the resources and the time to put it on the Jira board.
Like there's so much influence that's needed to actually promote something. And the more you do that, the better the product becomes. The more you, the product gets, well, your company does well, the better your company does, the more opportunities you have in the company. Like it's a big loop, right? And so influencing the product, influencing the engineering is.
Absolutely critical for your growth as an engineer and for other people in the company, and the success of your whole company as a whole, in which case you get to succeed. So, you know, and we spend a lot of time talking about that in the program. So I guess Mirko, you know, the, the last question for you really would be, you, you've achieved amazing things.
You've gone battled through so many hardships. You've, climb to leadership positions. You've taught yourself very complex, advanced skills, even through the program and, through boot camps, and you've paid a lot of effort. You've done a lot of things. What is it that excites you more, most about your future?
Now with all of this, these achievements under your belt? What are you most excited about in your [00:19:00] future? One part is, I would say the opportunity that I got, like before it was, it was more about this way or not the other way. Mm-hmm. I'm more a go again to your program. Like that structure helped me a lot.
That mindset of problem solving. It's not for only coding software engineer. You can apply that to every job. So I'm kind of can choose a little bit. I will probably still continue to code. I love it. Just kind of what you can create with code management. And a lot of, in software engineering is project management as well, and I think at the end I can combine that and really.
Do I still love software engineering? Go that route. Or I say like, no, let's adapt here and then really grow into specific positions. So I always wanted that option, and right now I can, I can showcase to everybody those skills and I. That helps me a lot right now. So, you know, a lot of people Mirko, they, they get into, especially when they're more [00:20:00] junior in their twenties and stuff, they get into software engineering and then in three to five years, a lot of them will want to go into management track.
Some of them will want to go to project management track, some of them want to go into product management track. So engineering is where they start off and then their real career growth goes another. Other a avenues, right? And you, because you're quite senior, you're, you know, you're in your late thirties when you join the program.
So, or you know, mid thirties when you join the program or whatever, you'd already got some of that seniority. So for you, you can actually compress the timeframe. So you do the, you know, you get the engineering skills. Then you go straight into the kind of promotional roles that other engineers had to wait for for seven years because you've got the other transferable skills from your previous life, right?
It's a, it's, and this is why I keep telling people, don't just obsess about software engineering, obsess about the skill, then open up the options. 'cause you're not, not everyone's gonna want to be an engineer for a long time. A lot of people want to be an engineer so that they can become a product manager.
If you can skip and go straight to being a product manager with technical skills, why wouldn't you? Right? Like that's just the rational thing to do. And adding to that, you actually said it in your program. [00:21:00] Really good. Don't think about the job now. Think about two, three other jobs, so correct. That's exactly for me.
It's like I have project, if I start here, I can grow that even more. And that's great. Yeah. What you actually said, we, we always think, you know, two to five jobs down the road, we don't think about the next job. We always have to think about two to five jobs down the road, right? Mm-hmm. So, good. Man. Look, I'm, I'm glad and I know, you know, just for anyone who's listening, I think.
You know, Mirko seems like a very smiling, positive person than he is, but he, this guy's been through a lot, like he's been through a lot of dark days, lot of setbacks, just like most people that we work with in the program because we spend so much time with you guys it's a lot of time. We are available for you guys when you need to get on the phone.
I mean, so many times when you and I have got on the phone last minute because, you know, we needed to talk about something that's, that's the nature of the relationship of the coaching relationship and. We get to see how many people struggle and how usually the struggle is a sign of progress, right?
Because if you're not struggling, that means you're not making progress. It's because you've got a new problem that needs to be [00:22:00] solved. That problem has only happened because you've made progress. And so , it's a great feeling to watch your students like Mirko encounter a big problem, feel defeated in the moment, feel scared in the moment, feel confused in the moment, and then keep.
Fighting, you know, and we love standing by people, your side and, and helping you because this is the human experience. Like, I've struggled a lot. Everyone's, anyone who's trying for something will struggle. It's just the rule of the jungle, right? If you're not struggling, you're probably not trying.
That's the reality of it, you know? So, Mirko, congratulations on all your success and all your your tremendous fighting spirit, your heart your incredible work ethic. I know you have to work across multiple sites in the California area, drive from here to there, a lot of time in traffic, different offices, typical big corporate stuff.
There are challenges. You've attended calls where I've also seen that, you've had to leave the call or attend to something quite urgently because if your level of seniority and you, you've shown up a tremendous commitment. So well done. Congratulations. And thank you for taking the time to speak with me, today, and more importantly.
[00:23:00] Thank you for sharing the reality, the inside story and sharing with people just how difficult it can be. And it's not, things are not obvious. They look obvious when you're on the outside, but when you're inside, there are difficult decisions there, confusing times, you know? And there's a lot of social media BS as you said, right.
And, and it gets in your head. So we want to , avoid that. So thank you again for your time. I really appreciate it. And thanks for sharing all your, your insights and experiences. Thank you for everything all to you Zubin. Of course. No problems. Alright guys, that's it for the show. I will see you all next time.
Outro
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