Harvard Law to Engineer - Student Deep Dive_Pallavi
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Pallavi: [00:00:00] I worked at some of the top tier law firms then I did my master's here from Harvard Law. And after that qualified the New York Bar and then joined a US law firm in London.
Speaker 2: just to
Zubin: jump ahead for the viewers,
so you're talking about the self doubt.
you are a software engineer now. So there, this, this story ends really well, but this was, we talking a few years ago, right?
So, you know, you, you are a software engineer now. Welcome to Easier Said Than Done with me, Zubin Pratap, where I share with you my journey from 37 year old lawyer to professional software engineer.
The goal of this podcast is to show you how to actually do those things that are easier said than done.
Zubin: Hi everybody. Welcome to the Easier Said Than Done podcast.
And I've got Pallavi today, a student of mine from a few years ago, who's been through more than her fair share of let's just call them challenges and problems. But through it all she has persevered, and she has succeeded. And she's found her. You know, she's, she was a very successful lawyer and made the transition so similar to my sort of background [00:01:00] in that sense, but it wasn't easy.
It, it never is. And the reason I bring people like pallavi on to the podcast is because I want you guys to understand that the end result. Is not just a magical overnight thing. It comes after a lot of struggle, a lot of trial and error, and most people succeed when they get the right kind of help or resistance or have the right kind of people around them.
So Pallavi, welcome to the show. Thank you for taking the time. And why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself, just dig into your background a little bit and then we'll, we'll start discussing your journey a bit more.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you for the lovely introductions, Zubin. Happy to be here.
So, okay. Let's begin from, okay. So I have been a lawyer for almost more than half a decade. And it was in 2022 that I first kind of, decided to want to transition. And yeah, I, I didn't know what to do, where to start from. Sounded like a crazy idea, idea back then and,
Zubin: and just to jump in there, sorry [00:02:00] Pallavi I don't mean to interrupt, but just to jump in there, I want people to understand you were a lawyer, you'd been educated in India like me, but you were working at a top tier law firm in the uk, so you had pretty much reached in legal senses the pinnacle of the career path.
Like that is the dream path, right? So it was a big decision to want to change that. But anyway, keep going with your story. Yes,
Pallavi: yes. So I, I worked at some of the top tier law firms in India and then I did my master's here from Harvard Law. And after that qualified the New York Bar and then joined a US law firm in London.
Zubin: Yeah. So,
There you go. That's not, not an easy thing to turn your back on.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. So it wasn't easy to kind of let everything go and kind of want to reinvent myself. A lot of challenges a lot of, I I had been facing a lot of difficult things on the personal front, and I think that is. What changed my perspective towards life and I wanted to kind of, relook at my [00:03:00] choices, my priorities.
I had to undergo. What,
Zubin: what is difficult about doing that Pallavi Sorry to just sort of go into a philosophical tangent, because so many students, you've met a few of them in the program, they come to me because you know, they wake up one day typically in their late twenties, early thirties, and they're like, is this the path I want to keep going on?
You know, what does this mean? Yeah. Yeah. And it's a very confronting moment. I remember that moment so clearly. Back in, for me it was 20 11, 20 12, you know, now, 14 years ago, 15 years 13 years ago. W tell me about, and, and I know the circumstances, we don't wanna dive into them too deep because they're very personal.
I get that. But tell me about emotionally, what that was like for you when you woke up one morning and said, Hey, do I wanna keep doing this? I've invested 10 by this time you've invested 10 years of your life and learning to be a, you know, learning, going to law school, being an and then probably more with the masters and all that.
Mm-hmm. What does that feel like? And, and. What does that sense of fear and doubt feel like when you suddenly wake up morning and you're like, hang on, is this, is this the path for me? What [00:04:00] am I doing? You know, tell, tell us about that.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of doubt. There's a lot of self-doubt. It's, i, I remember, like I, I was stressed. I wasn't able to sleep. I knew I wanted to go into tech, but then the very thought of it seemed like an impossible idea. And it just felt late in life, you know? Yeah. And, and just to
Zubin: jump ahead for the viewers, you are a software engineer now. So there, this, this story ends really well, but this was, we talking a few years ago, right?
So, you know, you, you are a software engineer now. But okay, so you're talking about the self doubt. Please go.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I, I remember the idea first coming into my mind when I was in, working in London. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know what to do, where to start from. I thought it's impossible. And I was scared.
Of course. Of course. And, and that's when I found you.
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Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do, where to start from. I thought it's impossible. And I was scared. And that kind of changed how I viewed the entire challenge of, you know, transitioning my career. Because speaking to you made me realize that, okay, it is possible. It's not an impossible thing to do, of course, not easy. But that is what gave me hope that, you know, okay, I can do this.
And I think along the way. Just [00:06:00] having great people around you, support system, a great mentor I think that is what really helped me be. Reach my goal. So
Zubin: a hundred percent. And you know, obviously we, we've sort of shorthanded the whole thing in that description because you, it took a few years for you 'cause you had some health setbacks and other things, so you had to pause you know, and then you ended up moving to California to be with your husband because he's in a, he's a fang, big tech engineer.
So, you know, of course lots of people are gonna say, oh, then Pallavi had it easy because her partner's a fang, big tech engineer. But you know, that's not how the real world works. It is easier than not having that. For sure it is an advantage, but also, hey, you have, you know, some health conditions. You are moving, you are leaving a giant successful career.
You are moving across the Atlantic. You are starting over. Other people don't have those problems. You know, so you have advantages, you have problems. So that, you know, that's a, that's a big jump for you. Tell me about, I don't actually remember this, you may have told me this in the past, but, but tell me about how you came to find [00:07:00] out about me, because.
Often we think things are impossible until we find one person who's done it, right? Yes. But it still takes some guts to say, if it's possible for them, it's possible for me. You'd be surprised how many people say, well, oh, they got lucky. Mm-hmm. Instead of saying, hang on. If it's possible for them, it's possible for me.
So remind me again how you found me and what gave you the courage to say, okay, I'm gonna reach out to Zubin and we are gonna see if we can make this happen. What, what was going through your head at that point in time?
Speaker 2: I think at that point, it was a hard phase in life. I was still recovering from my open heart surgery.
Mm-hmm. And then I was in London at my dream job.
Zubin: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes. And then, you know, the thought of wanting to go into software I remember there were a lot of sleepest nights and after Yeah, I, I found you on LinkedIn. And I, I remember sending out that message and I was very skeptical. I I, I was hesitant.
You know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not great at networking and stuff, so I [00:08:00] think I was hesitant at first, but then yeah, you replied immediately and that's how like,
Zubin: yeah. Yeah. Thing I, a.
A lot of the crappier message is like, hi, bro, or hey, can you help me? You know, like, people just start by that, you know, I think yours is a very thoughtful message, which is why I would've bothered, you know, to to reply, because obviously, you know, there's, you get hundreds of these messages and you, you're a very thoughtful person.
Okay. So Avi, you know, you are a software engineer now, and I, I wanna sort of get you to talk to. PA from 2022. Right? So PA from 2025 gets to Coach PA from 2022. 'cause there are lots of people who are gonna be listening who are in your shoes or were are in the same shoes you were in three years ago.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Zubin: What's the hardest thing about career change?
Speaker 2: I think the hardest thing is. Sticking to, you know, there are a lot of comments that will come from people around you and your head will go in the direction where you want to compare yourself to others. So the hardest thing is to be clear [00:09:00] as to why you are doing it and be, you know, to be true to that.
Zubin: Yeah,
Pallavi: just, you know, have, have,
especially
Zubin: when you've got a successful career, you know, it's a different thing when you're 22, 23 starting out. Your opportunity cost, what you're giving up is lower. You know, it's much lower when you already climb the ladder a bit and you're very successful. You're at the apex.
You know, like you were in some of the best law firms in the world. To give something on that up takes a lot of courage, right? And then people are gonna, everyone, especially family, they're gonna be like, are you crazy? You worked all your life with this. Like this is your dream job.
You just said it. Why are you turning it back on that? And it's so hard. So would you say in a very real sense, handling that mindset and emotional state is at least as hard, if not harder, than just coding.
Speaker 2: It, it is, it is definitely harder. Like
Zubin: why to, to help people understand this. 'cause no one believes me when I tell them this until they go through it.
Just help people understand this.
Speaker 2: I just see, I just feel, see I, I'm not saying coding is easy, but then it's like any other skill. It's learnable, [00:10:00] right? Yes. But I think having the mindset to go through. Things that are difficult, you know, that kind of challenge. Who you are, who you have been, and yeah.
Kind of, you know, challenge everything you've learned so far. Kind of unlearning everything. Learning again, that's the hard bit because you can't, there's no formula to it. You can't just learn it and be done with it. Yeah. It's, it's a process. It's a lifelong process.
Zubin: It's a lifelong process. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And e even now, I would say it's, it's not like I have now that I am a software engineer. It, it's still challenging. You know, I'm it, I think that that's something that will, that I'm going to be learning all my life.
Zubin: It never changes. In fact, I had another, one of my students who's, you know, had a massive success recently Rose one of the other episodes it'll come out in a couple of days, I think, and she's, she said the same thing.
She said, look. It. You know, she's actually been an engineer for a little while, and then she came [00:11:00] to the program because she was like, she felt stuck. She felt like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, why would an engineer come to the program? I asked her this on the show, and she's like, well, people think, oh, once you learn to code, it just magically falls in place.
She's like, no. It just gets harder and harder in a good way. But you realize the game you have to level up at the game. Right. And it's, it's, it's a lifelong thing. Every next level has a bunch of challenges, which is why. You, you'll remember from the program that I don't talk about jobs except for the first one, right?
Yes. I keep talking about the career. I'm like, think about your career over the next 20, 30 years. That's the thing that you're playing for. Right? So, you know, I'm, I'm glad you're talking about the mindset stuff and, and I do remember IV when I was making the transition, right? I was. 37 and learning to code and, you know, I was getting ready for partnership and stuff.
I, that was the level I was at legally. I'd moved into business roles for a little while as well. And I remember speaking to a co bunch of my classmates from, you know, law school and all of them were partners doing really well, you know, and all of that. And every single one of them said, Zubin, are you [00:12:00] crazy?
You've been a lawyer for 15 years. You've been training for the law for 20, right? So that's when you started law school 20 years ago, why would you do something like this and you're doing well? Like, it's not like there's a problem. And I spent so many nights, by the way, just. Beating myself up thinking, what, what's wrong with me?
Why can't I be happy with what I've got? I've got the dream career. I, you know, is there something wrong with me? Am I being a bit of an asshole? Am I being ungrateful? Like, what's going on? But there was that drive inside me, that desire inside me, right? Like, and it's not something I could necessarily ignored was there.
And here's the kicker. When I got my first dev role, people thought, oh, okay. You know, some, he's basically gone backwards. 'cause I took a massive pay cut for my first developer job, you know, compared to lawyer salary, obviously. Then when I got into Google, one of those friends of mine who was a partner called me up and said, Hey, can you help me do that?
Right? And I'm like, I thought you gave me a lecture two years ago about how I'm doing a stupid thing. He's like, yeah, [00:13:00] yeah, but you know, I'm thinking maybe I wanna do this too. And I'm like, to be honest, I'm not sure that you actually want to be a software engineer. I think you're just miserable being a lawyer.
There's a difference. You know, you're, you're trying to run away from something as opposed to go towards something. So, you know, tell us about. Some of the setbacks that you, not just the health stuff. Let's talk about the learning setbacks. Tell us about the experience about learning to code, because people think that that's the only bit that matters.
Right? And you found out after you learned to code, there's still a lot more many steps that we cover in the program. But, you know, describe how hard it was for you for someone with zero tech background and now you're an engineer. How hard it was to. Persist through those dark, dark months. It's not days, it's months.
You know, talk about your experience, your learnings, your, you know, what you tell other people.
Speaker 2: So, I remember Zoomin from, from your program and that thing, like it stuck with me that there is a difference between learning how to code and being a professional software [00:14:00] developer. Would
Zubin: you agree with that?
Now that you are a professional software engineer?
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Coding is just one piece of the puzzle. There's a lot more to it. Mm-hmm. So, I feel, yeah, ev everything in itself has been a challenge. First, it's about learning how to code, then what language to start from. Mm-hmm. What to do, what kind of engineer do I want to be, you know?
Right. A bunch of questions and way too much information on the internet.
Zubin: And the internet is, is a sewage, so it's too much. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So. And that's where like you, you really helped me out, you know, kind of figure out where to begin from, begin my journey from, and yeah. Otherwise, yeah, it, it, it's, it was like I was at sea.
I didn't know where to start from.
Zubin: Yeah. Yeah.
Pallavi: And then I think learning how to code is like, okay, developing a skill, but then having the skill that people would pay you for. To make yourself marketable and get yourself hired. I think that's different
Zubin: level
Pallavi: kind of [00:15:00] mountain to cross. Totally.
Zubin: Which is why we spend so much time in market development in the program, is because just because you know how to cook doesn't make you a chef then, like there are so many steps you've gotta go through, you know?
Pallavi: Yeah.
Zubin: So, so, sorry. Go on.
Pallavi: So I think the program really, and I was aware of these things right from the beginning because I was a part of the program, so I knew what I was getting myself into. Versus I'm sure like there are a lot of people who, who are under, under the false belief that, you know, once you learn how to code, that's it.
Pretty much a hundred percent of people stop that way for that, you know, to you for that, that I had that visibility right from the beginning.
Zubin: And having the right expectations means you can then build the right plan. You can't make a plan if your expectations are wrong. If assumptions are wrong, that's fatal to the plan.
It's a pretty serious problem, you know? And that's why we, we spend 12 months is because these things take dime, especially when you're starting from zero. Right. Especially when you're starting from zero. So now tell us a little bit about 'cause and, you know, I, I, I'm this. I want you to talk about this.[00:16:00]
You finished the program, you had to take some time off, you know, I think it was well over a year. Then you ended up moving to San Francisco. You weren't working full-time. I think you know, in the law at that point of time, and maybe you weren't working at all, there were all these big life changes that you were doing.
And so you decided, okay, you've lost a bit of momentum because you finished the program and then the health things happened. And she said, okay, I'm gonna go back and revise and go hard into full-time bootcamp because, you know, you'd already learned a bunch of things in the program, but then it had been a while.
And you had let those skills drop off a bit. You went into a program and now you're a software engineer. So tell us about the difference in your experience, because bootcamps are very useful if people can go full-time, have the money for it, and you know, just do it like intensively, right. But tell us the difference.
And you don't have to sort of, I'm not doing this still one way or the other, just you've done both. You most students. You've done it the other way, and most students come into the program after a bootcamp. Mm-hmm. You then ended up, because of your personal circumstances, you ended up doing a bootcamp a couple of years after the program.
But tell people about when should someone [00:17:00] choose a bootcamp? When should someone choose a, a personalized coaching program? Because it's different for everybody. There's no one size fits all. Right? You've done both. Tell people what the difference is and when, if you had to help someone make the choice, when should they go for one over the other and how to approach that analysis.
Pallavi: Right. So. I think for me because I had done the program, so after the program, I took, took some break to kind of recover and be good health wise. Mm-hmm. But then I think my foundation was already built in terms of, you know, knowing, being very clear about what I wanted to do, why I wanted to do it what kind of, what language.
I think that base was already built because of the program where I knew all the, you know, I knew what challenges should be expected and everything.
Zubin: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, just,
Zubin: just remind me again, did you actually, because you did end up having to leave the program because of the health stuff, did you end up finishing your entire coding plan at that point in time, or you did because of the health things?
Speaker 2: I finished, I [00:18:00] finished phase one of, yeah.
Zubin: So you, because I think I've given you three phases.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah,
Zubin: yeah. So you only finished phase one, okay.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. By that time I had finished phase one. Mm-hmm.
Zubin: So
Speaker 2: I, I think I was in a good place to be able to choose the bootcamp that
Zubin: correct.
Speaker 2: Otherwise, it's, I think had a big one from there.
I don't think I would have.
Zubin: Do you remember why you didn't get to phase two and phase three? Was it because of the life disruptions or was it something else? Yeah. Yeah it was. So that's what happened. Okay. Alright, so, so. It's hard for you then to really, because most people, it's hard for you because phase two and phase three is when you get professional level skills, right?
First one, phase one is just foundational literacy. So it's, it's hard for you to compare, but as, as best you can. What would you say? Is, is the, you know, when should someone choose a bootcamp versus a personal coaching or vice versa? Like now that you know, and you're in the industry and you were mentoring somebody with whatever the circumstances are, how would you advise them to make that choice?[00:19:00]
Speaker 2: I think I would always looking back, I think personal coaching is definitely better than a bootcamp, because in a bootcamp you're just thrown into this intensive. Three month period where you, you have to learn on your own. You have to learn things very quickly, very fast. And it's, it's a standard approach for everyone, right?
Everyone's needs are very different. So,
Zubin: what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: Basically, I, I might want to, you know, somebody might want to, somebody might want to do full stack, somebody might want to do backend, somebody might, you know, that, and everyone's learning style is different.
Zubin: Totally different. Yeah.
That's why I give you guys all the customized band that I have to study Your learning style. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So everyone's learning style is different. Mm-hmm. So, you know, if you are given a plan that caters to you mm-hmm. What you want to do and how you wanna do it. Based on you know, your strengths, your weaknesses mm-hmm.
Things like that. I think that out the, there's a greater [00:20:00] probability of you being successful in the end mm-hmm. Rather than mm-hmm. Having that
Zubin: cookie cutter sort of one size. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Zubin: And,
Pallavi: I think for, for me the, the bootcamp was a great learning experience, but then.
That was against the backdrop of having done a lot of work before through the program. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it helped me kind of get the structure and by that time I knew that okay, getting that structure would be good for me and I needed that ing. I was fully a remote, I was in a new country, I didn't know anybody.
Right. So that kind of interaction was needed for me at that point in time.
Zubin: Right. And so now you, you know, fully remote's an interesting thing. So you, you've, you've obviously become, you know, you're a fully remote software engineer. Mm-hmm. Tell us about the challenges after learning to code and getting interviews, because that's a really hard phase where a lot of people fail.
You know, where you got the basic skills, but you don't know whether it's good enough for the market yet you need to have some feedback loops closed out [00:21:00] before you know that. Tell us about that phase in your journey.
Speaker 2: I think of course there, there's the, there's the technical aspect to it, you know, where you build your CV from scratch, you have your Yeah.
GitHub profile, those things. But I think, I think the hardest thing that actually comes in is I think the rejections.
Zubin: Oh, it's so hard. Yeah. We talked about adjusting that other podcast. We, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think, yeah, it's. For me, I was prepared for, for that phase because, because of the program.
Otherwise, I think '
Zubin: cause of the bootcamp or because of my program.
Speaker 2: Your program.
Zubin: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because we do spend a lot of time preparing people for that. Yeah. Yes.
Speaker 2: So I think, I think that was the phase where, you know, it gets really difficult because you, you don't have a degree, you don't have experience.
Zubin: Right.
Pallavi: And to be able to market yourself and, to get hired, but, but I, I remember one, one thing that you said from your program is that out [00:22:00] of those a hundred, a hundred people, you just need that, you need to find that one person. Who believes in you. And and
Zubin: that's true in a down market. Like right now we've got five of the students interviewing in a down market, right?
Mm-hmm. And I only work with what, like 10, 12, 15 people at a time, right? So, you know, full 30% have reached the end of phase three. Or some of them have four phases depending on the, on the plan that I built for them. And they're interviewing now, and this is in a down market. And I keep telling them guys, even in a down market, there's a quarter of a million jobs open in the US alone.
You need one. Yes. Okay. So even in a done market, there's enough opportunity, and if you're in the top 20% in any market, you will have opportunities if you're in the top 20%, but you have to get to the top 20%,
Speaker 2: and
Zubin: that's not possible in three months. It's just not.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Zubin: Right. So, okay, keep going. I think you're saying more about yeah, being,
Pallavi: being, you know, ready for a lot of rejections, not having that mindset to just keep going despite everything.
Yeah. And I think also things like [00:23:00] building how to market yourself, having a very clear narrative for yourself. Yes. So these are things that no, no, no bootcamp will, you know, really teach you those things. So these are things that I had gotten from the program, which kind of helped me through that phase.
Zubin: How would you say that Bit helps? Like how people don't realize how important it's to have the right narrative. Because all recruiters and hiring managers in tech are gonna be looking at you and saying, I don't know. You're really risky by the way. Like, you've got zero background in this. Like, why? Why are you here?
Why are we spending time talking to you? So why is it so important to prepare the answers, to have the mental, emotional, and intellectual preparation for that phase of the journey? In your experience, from your direct experience, why do you think that's so important?
Pallavi: I think it's important to. Kind of de de-risk yourself in the eyes of others.
Mm-hmm. And and there's a method to everything. Like you have to be very clear about why you're doing this. What is your story? Because if you are not convinced, you cannot convince others, right? [00:24:00] Correct. Yeah. So I thinking. Is what helped, helped, helped me
Zubin: with the rejections. Because what happens in a rejection is somebody else's opinion is that, look, I don't think you're good enough for this role.
That's the opinion. That's what happens in a rejection. And you have to say, I can see why you say that, but I don't think that's true. That's why I'm gonna try again. That's actually what has to go through your head. Right? And again, we spend time on this in the program where I talk about if in a given environment, if.
The hiring manager is most certain that you are not right. Then you are certain that you can be the right person. It's a battle of certainty. It's not a battle of skill at that point in time. It's a battle of certainty, and whoever's most certain in that environment will win. Right. But you can't fake that certainty.
People can't, if think faking totally. Making it is a real thing. It's not a real thing. You can only have that certainty when you've done the work. Yes. And you know that okay, on the day I may miss the shot on the goal, that's fine. Mm-hmm. But on the whole, I'm a good enough player that I'll [00:25:00] get most shots on the goal.
Right? Yeah. And that's the answer that ends up being the answer. Right. So, you, you know, it's amazing that you sort of took all that so seriously to heart because you started from a position of. Like I said, it is a big jump for you, and so the anxiety is proportionate to the size of the jump, you know?
So you had all that, plus you were in a new country and all that. Tell me about what it's like to actually be an engineer and how that changed or how that's different from your expectations when you are fantasizing about being an engineer. Because it's a, it's a different experience, right? Yeah. Share some insight on that.
What it's like, what is it like on the inside?
Pallavi: So, so I, I'm loving being where I am right now. Yeah. Getting to, getting to get, you know, so I'm working at a startup, so getting my hands dirty with a lot of things, a lot of learning. It's a very steep curve yeah. Learning curve for me. I think fantasizing wise, you kind of fantasize that, you know, things will not, you kind of expect things to happen sooner.
So,
Zubin: every time. Yeah. [00:26:00]
Speaker 2: And you kind of like picture yourself working on everything that's fancy. Everything
that is, I think that that is not the case. Sometimes you're stuck with a problem for days, just debug. Yeah. And. You get it, you know, once, once you're able to solve something, the feeling that you get after being stuck for days is. I think it, that's what makes it worth it. So
Zubin: a hundred, that's how, that's why we stay addicted.
It's that weird, unpredictable reward system after being stuck for days. It's like Stockholm syndrome, right? You hate everything about code while you're stuck. And the moment you make that breakthrough, suddenly like, oh, I love this. This is the best thing ever. Like, it's, it's endless abusive relationship with a compiler, right?
It's just, it's just so awkward. But yeah, you, you've described it absolutely correctly. That's the reality of it on the inside. You know, people think writing code is about Hello World, or you know, you know, create next app and everything starts that way. But no, you know, when you [00:27:00] walk in, like, you know, when you walked into your startup, were you, were you the first, first person to write code or was there already a lot of code written?
Pallavi: There, there was a lot of code already written, and that's totally
Zubin: different from how we do it in tutorials. Right. It's a totally different experience.
Pallavi: Yes. Right. So yeah, being able to go through somebody else's code or even things like, you know, a lot of things are about trade-offs. Yes,
Zubin: that's engineering.
Pallavi: Interesting because I kind of, I, I feel like it's, at some level it is similar to law. Very similar. Yeah. You break down the problem and then there's no one right answer, but it's about what's the best answer for your or use case, so correct.
Zubin: It's exactly, that's what I keep telling people. It's it all structured thinkings like that because most of life is not a simple binary problem of right or wrong.
Most of life isn't like that. Right? Even things like should you have children, it's not a binary question of right or wrong, should I get a dog? Not a right binary question, should I buy this car or that car? None of these are binary questions. Life is not [00:28:00] binary in that sense. Right? And same thing with engineering is while the compiler may, may work in ones and zeros, the decisions about what should be compiled.
Is a, a, a spectrum of trade-offs. And exactly the same thing in the law. You know, what's right for the client, what's right by the regulation, what's, you know, how do you balance these competing commercial interests and the legal requirements? Very hard questions. It's the same thing with with software engineering.
Yeah. And, and it's, you know, that's actually what makes engineering different from just coding. Coding is writing the code. Engineering is thinking about what code needs to be written. Yes, exactly. And it's, it's a fundamentally different skill, right?
Pallavi: Yes. In a better way. Yes, exactly.
Zubin: Yeah. So, you know, and that comes from experience, from being, being on the inside and, and knowing that, oh, normally I would've written this.
But then, you know, some of the more experienced engineers said, yeah, but have you thought about that? And I hadn't thought about that. And now that changes my answer. And it's such. Fun to realize it's not about the writing of the code, you know that even the AI can do these days, right? It's about, you know, which code deserves to be written, which [00:29:00] code should not be written, and so on.
So, look, I, you know, your, your journey has been a real inspiration pave. I'm, I'm so proud of, of your courage. You kept going, you kept going, you kept going. You're never afraid to ask for help. You took so many punches on the chin. You kept getting up and kept, you know, and I, I've said this on every episode where I've had a student you know, in, in this episode, in this podcast, honestly, the difference between those that succeed and those that don't is quite simply they want it badly enough to try again.
That is it, that is the difference. They want it badly to keep trying, you know, with through all the rejection. So if you were to tell people listening, you know, what, if you were to coach somebody right now, who's. At a position where they've been trying for a little while, but they're not getting any success.
They're trying to do it on their own. They're flying blind, they're overwhelmed by social media and the internet. What, how would you coach somebody in that stuck position now they've been trying for a while, learned a bit of code, but not made any progress. Did that person, what would you say?
Pallavi: I think of, of course, to not, not, you [00:30:00] know, quit un unless they have a very good reason to.
Zubin: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Pallavi: So, you know, just, just not quit because of the fear of what's gonna happen. Because usually if you are doing the work, success is just, just around the corner and it's true. You know, you just have to be at it.
So.
Zubin: And speaking of doing the work, how would you advise people to figure out what works, what should be done? Like what's, you know, especially if they're figuring it out for themselves. How do you figure this out on yourself? Or is there a better way? You know what? What should people be doing to solve the problem of getting the skills required to change career?
'cause it's a huge problem.
Pallavi: I think getting the skills is to find, is to be able to find the right program for you, find the right people to support you. Find a mentor who's willing to put in the work, who's willing to, you know, be there for you when you need answers. And luckily I, I found that in Zubin and not every, everyone is lucky to find such a [00:31:00] mentor and I think, or to be able
Zubin: to afford something like that, right?
Like, you know, there's a large number of people out there who can't afford something. Like, so what would you say to them if they had to figure it out for themselves? What principles or rules would you come up with? For example, one of the things I tell people is. Ignore social media except for two people.
Ignore everybody else because you'll find that we are all saying pretty much the same thing. It's there are only so many ways to skin this cat, right? We are all saying more or less the same thing. But rather than listen to everybody on the internet and jump around, just listen to your two most favorite people.
That's it. And two, not everybody else. And do what those two people tell you to do. Just do it. Right. That's one of my rules. What rules do you have for people who can't afford boot camps, mentorships, whatever it is who are trying to figure this out in their own?
Pallavi: I think to have. To have a plan in place and if something is not working out to reevaluate and to, to kind of think of an alternative to try to analyze why things are not working and mm-hmm.
And to keep yourself, [00:32:00] you know, reflecting as to you know, knowing yourself as to what is going wrong, because nobody can tell you what's not working. Correct. It's only you who can figure that out, right. Correct. Being very transparent, not lying to yourself, basically, you know? Good. Yeah. Sometimes ignore what's happening and to just be stuck.
But it, it takes courage to kind of be truthful to yourself and know, Hey, this is not working.
Zubin: Yeah,
Pallavi: yeah,
Zubin: yeah.
Pallavi: If it's not working, not just quit. If it's not working or not, the answer's not to quit. The answer is to find another way that will to
Zubin: intelligently modify your approach.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Zubin: Okay. So, you know, you you, one of the things you mentioned that is, is quite important 'cause when people have to figure out what to do next, they typically turn to the internet.
Mm-hmm. What would you say about that? Like pros and cons, you know, be careful off, et cetera.
Pallavi: I think the internet is a good place to know what all is out [00:33:00] there. But then it's not a good place to tell you that this is something that will work for you. Mm-hmm. So, if you want to just have another perspective, have everything that's out there, go ahead, do it, but then to know what will work for you.
I think you need to know yourself. You need to know your priorities. I think yeah. Like things that you want in life. Yeah.
Zubin: And also I think, I feel like the person's context matters. I, I dunno why people don't think of this enough. How old are you? How much free time do you have outside of work? Do you have family who are dependent on you?
Do you have health issues? Do you have kids? All of these things impact enormously, but no one thinks about like, we spend so much time doing time audits and stuff in the program so that we understand how your time is used, what are the big categories of things that are priorities? What are the things you're spending time on that are not priorities?
You know, we have to audit all of this, right? And, and people just, and I genuinely think. Fairly or unfairly. It is harder [00:34:00] for parents. It just is. It's also harder for people with high responsibility jobs, you know? But as a woman, and I know you're not a parent yet, but you know, as a woman, do you think, what has your experience been as a woman in this space?
Do you think it's been particularly different? Are there unique challenges that women face, that women should think about? You know, what, what is your perspective and advice to women out there?
Pallavi: I think it is, it is definitely not yeah, like, you know, you face different kind of challenges because of your gender, not just your, in your profession, maybe just generally in the society you live in, family, everything.
Zubin: Yeah. But then culture, like different cultures have different pressures in women, right? Yeah.
Pallavi: Yes. So. For me, I think I have been lucky enough to not really kind of be in a situation where I'm made to feel kind of, diff different because of my gender, but then there, there are certain like where, [00:35:00] you know, subtle nuances to it that you have to navigate in everyday life.
Yeah. Being, yeah. I think it, it's just about not, not not being scared to get your voice out there
Zubin: that I genuinely believe that's the key of it. You know, you, you, I know whether you remember, but when you VVL letter and others were in the program, I used to say, I don't know why it is, but anecdotally in my experience as a hiring manager, not just Deck, but you know, even though women don't speak up for themselves enough.
They won't ask for the raise, they won't negotiate the salary as much, et cetera. And that's largely cultural, I think, I don't know, I can't speak because it's a, another woman, but I guess it's cultural for different people or, you know, social and. Interestingly, Elene Lerner, who's she's the founder of interviewing.io.
She's an ex engineer turned recruiter. You know, you, you probably know of her in the interviewing.io sort of world online. She does a lot of big tech interview training. She's phenomenal, right? So I've had her on the show and she's the only person on earth. Only person on Earth's got this kind of data because she's done more than [00:36:00] 33,000 mock interviews with FANG engineers doing the interview and aspiring FANG engineers taking the interview.
Right. So both sides and it's all anonymized. Right. And she did this brilliant experiment where she sort of deno the data, took away the gender from the voice in the recorded interviews. So neutralize the gen. You couldn't tell what gender the person is from, from the voice. And did an analysis across the interviews and found that women.
Typically quit after the first rejection and men will only quit after the sixth or seventh. Right. And she said it's actually not that tech, at least from the data she has, it's not like interviewers are biased against women. It's that women, and she's a woman and she's like, women are more likely to not try than men after the first few rejections.
Right. Which is huge as a piece of data because. Automatically. She said when women tried more than two or three times, the gender differential disappeared.
Speaker 2: Okay? Mm-hmm.
Zubin: Right? Which is really fast. Now she's got the data, she's got, you know, [00:37:00] so much data on this and she's a woman saying, I know this is gonna be controversial.
I'm just telling you what the data says. Does that, what, does that ring true for you as a woman That you know, sometimes you hold yourself back and it appears the men don't as much. Do you feel that's true for you personally?
Speaker 2: So at least. I would say yes to some extent. Maybe it's a part of just your conditioning or I, I, I dunno where it comes from.
Yeah. But yeah.
Zubin: And do you find on the job, it makes much of a difference now the inside, once you've made it past the interviews and you're in on the job, are you finding it makes, does it seem to be an issue in, or not even an issue? Does it seem to be a difference of any sort? Does anyone care?
Especially when you're remote?
Speaker 2: No. No, none. Not really.
Zubin: Yeah. And that's what I found. Sorry, go on. But
Speaker 2: I think it's important to kind of find a workplace that has a culture that. Kind of doesn't propagate those kind of biases.
Zubin: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, finding a culture that's good is important for [00:38:00] men and for women.
Like you could have a culture of bu bullying. You could have a culture of, to toxic masculinity. You'd have a culture, a culture of toxic femininity. You could have all sorts of stupid cultures subcultures out there. Right? And you have to do the homework.
Speaker 2: So you, yeah. You have to do the homework. Yeah.
And
Zubin: so is the short answer. People are complicated. People are complicated. Compilers are so much easier. So much easier. Anyway, look Pavi, thank you for your time. Thank you for your generous thoughts. Congratulations once again on your ongoing success. As I tell most of my students who get to this phase, you know, this is the beginning.
You know, you, you are restarting your career. It takes a lot of courage to do that. You've already got, you know, a successful dev job at the moment. You're growing a lot. Already in it's early days, and you've already spotted the difference between knowing how to code and actually engineering, you know, the difference between you, you know that this is the beginning for you.
You've got tremendous opportunity. You're in a hotbed of opportunity being in, you know, in, in the Bay Area. And I look forward to a tremendous career ahead of you. You know, I'm always here for you. You, you always happy on WhatsApp? Anytime, anything you need. And especially if you're sending me pictures [00:39:00] of Luna the dog, I'll be very happy to respond to anything you have to ask.
Anytime, any place. But thank you for taking the time to be on the show. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts, so thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It, it was lovely having this conversation with you. I thought it's always a
Zubin: pleasure. Thank
Speaker 2: you. Yeah,
Zubin: you too. No, it's a absolute pleasure. Thank
Speaker 2: you for the role you've played in my career transition.
It's. I'm grateful for that.
Zubin: Thank you. Yeah. I'm grateful I get to work with people like you. It's the biggest joy when people like you actually stick with it long enough to get the results. You've had more than your fair share of battle, so. You know, it, it took you a while, but you just refused to quit.
So kudos to you. I I did very little other than walk with you along some parts of the journey you had to actually climb that mountain, you know? So, so it, it really all, all credit goes to you. But look, thanks for your time again, and I'll see you next time, I'm sure in a few months or maybe in a year or so.
You know, I'm sure you'll have more adventures to share and I'll see you then. So, thanks for joining the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
[00:39:53] outro
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