Ep 60 From Self-Doubt to Software Engineer: Rose's career change to code
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[00:00:00] (Overcoming Rejection & Self-Doubt: Rose’s Path to Software Engineering Success)
[00:00:00] Zubin: Hey everybody and welcome back to The Easier Said Than Done podcast. I'm very excited because today I've got Rose, one of my star students who joined the program about 12 months ago Actually.
[00:00:11] This is before Brian and I got together to do the parity program together, but you know, it's more or less the same program that Brian and I are doing together. And Rose joined us at a time when I think, you know, there was a lot going on. There was a lot going on in, in, in Rose's life. And so rose, I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself and then we can take it from there. 'cause I've got a bunch of questions for you that you're gonna enjoy answering given the huge transformation you've gone through. Sound good?
[00:00:35] Rose: Sounds good.
[00:00:36] Zubin: All right. So tell us about yourself, rose.
[00:00:38] Rose: Yeah, I am, I've been a software engineer
[00:00:42] and it's been really a passion of mine to, to develop stuff and my path is not also straightforward. Like some people before. Coding back in 2008 I was got into systems analysis and [00:01:00] then went to a job as bus business analyst, and then I worked with, yeah, different companies and those experiences kind of helped me actually to see a different side of programming.
[00:01:12] I've always been. Yeah, like, like programming, but when I'd had that, those jobs, it kind of really. Give me how things work on the management side. Yeah. And it was really fun, you know, like a lot of learning in there, a lot of talking to, you know, VPs and SMEs and a lot of delegating task. But I still kind of always go back to being like programmer asking technical questions and kind of, you know, like.
[00:01:43] Suggesting like technical solutions, like what we can do and stuff, even though it's not my job. So I found myself like still craving for that, you know, development kind of role. So, yeah. Yeah, so what I did was, even though I also have like a bachelor in computer [00:02:00] science after coming here in the US I kind of started to think of how I can kind of get ahead or refresh my skills.
[00:02:09] And that made me decide to go to a bootcamp for like three months. And that's like full stack web development. And that's what we learned, you know, Python and C and Angular at that time, you know? Mm-hmm. You notice and everything bootcamp was fun. I, I did learn, of course, I did learn some things. It's not really very in depth, but after that, you know, after two months, I kind of just.
[00:02:35] Went applying after my bootcamp and then I got into, you know, my first professional software engineering job here in the US And then after that, you know, I get hired to another company . And then kind of like, that's a time where I kind of felt the like stagnance of where I am in my career.
[00:02:58] And I've always kind of. [00:03:00] Really my goal is to really have a lot of, you know, like, like goals and, and, and kind of level myself up all the time. And I felt like it was really the time where, yeah, I got really stuck on, on shifting my career or leveling up my career or just, you know, like even being open about it to my, my, my current, my previous job.
[00:03:23] Zubin: Can I, can I just jump in there Rose and ask, because. Y we have a lot of students who've done boot camps. We've had a few students who, like you have, you know, software engineering titles and backgrounds, many who've done computer science degrees. I think people sort of tend to assume that, oh, once, you know, once you've got one kind of coding job or you've done a computer science degree or whatever, like you are some sort of.
[00:03:43] You know, established software engineer, but it's not that way. Like there's so many different levels of software engineering, right? Like, in many senses, you know, you are more qualified than I am. You've been added at least as long as I have been, et cetera, et cetera. But it, the kind of experiences [00:04:00] we have on the workplace, not just you and I, like across engineering is so different.
[00:04:04] There's no one type of software engineering. So, you know, what made you want to join the program, given that, you know, on paper. You had the skills, what was the problem that you were trying to solve?
[00:04:16] Rose: Well, the main thing was I didn't really feel that I'm a software engineer. You know, like, yes, I'm, I'm, I'm coding all the time.
[00:04:26] I am, I was able to solve or resolve tickets, you know, I was able to do, solve problems add functionalities and whatsoever debug and stuff like that. But I, deep down, I didn't really feel like. I'm kind of pushing myself to reach my potential,
[00:04:43] Zubin: like, so what, what would you say to people then, rose, who feel, oh, I've learned a bit of code and therefore I'm a software engineer.
[00:04:49] What would you say to that?
[00:04:50] Rose: I would say that, I don't know, like coding is, is it really? Everything.
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[00:05:39] Rose: I would say that, I don't know, like coding is, is it really? Everything. As part of Software Eng Yeah. As part of, it's a small
[00:05:48] Zubin: part of software engineering. Yeah.
[00:05:50] Rose: Yeah. As part of like software engineer. It's, it's not like we tend, I feel like most of the people who already are in the industry or trying to get in, like really [00:06:00] think that it's all about coding, but when you get there, it's not really about that.
[00:06:05] There's a lot of Never been. Yeah. There's a lot of mental challenges that you have to do and at the same time. Yeah. You have to kind of put yourself out there, expose yourself out there. Yeah. And you're not just, you're not just on your desk coding, like every day you have to communicate with like different people.
[00:06:24] Yeah. And you have to change ideas, collaborate, and I think those are the things that. You know, even, even I am with experience already, like missed, like I feel like, oh, like being a software engineer is just like, like just coding, coding, coding forever.
[00:06:39] Both: Very common.
[00:06:40] Rose: Yeah. And I miss those. You know, those important points that really make you stand out, that makes you better as a software engineer?
[00:06:48] Zubin: Yeah. In, in fact, that was a lesson I learned early on, probably because I had the good fortune of, you know, I, I was, I had a career before that for like 15, 16 years, and I'd seen the same thing in other careers that. The main thing that attracts [00:07:00] attention is not the thing that that actually makes you successful in the job, right?
[00:07:04] Like, if you wanna be an author, it's not necessarily, you don't have to be the best writer, you know? Or you look at someone like Bruce Springsteen who himself says he is not the best guitarist. He's not the best singer, right? But he's one of the best rock artists of all time, you know? And the same thing when as at Google, I asked a bunch of questions from very experienced.
[00:07:21] We're talking 20 plus. Levels, you know, years staff, engineers, and they're like, well, in their view, not all of them said this, but this is the view that I took away from some of them. Coding is, is the writing part when you're writing the actual code. But software engineering is when you try and figure out what code needs to be written.
[00:07:37] And what code does not need to be written, which is at least is important. And that's really hard. That's much harder than just writing the code, especially these days with the AI stuff. Like, it'll just, especially if you're a frontend engineer, it'll just do it for you. But knowing what needs to be done, you know, how it's gonna impact the, the product, the team, the other users, et cetera, is, is a very hard skill.
[00:07:56] So, so, you know, when you decided to join the Inner Circle program [00:08:00] about a year ago, what were you trying to get out of it?
[00:08:02] Rose: Well, the main thing that I wanted to, to get out of it is I really want to shift company. I want to, that's kind of like the main goal, but apart from that, because I felt stagnant at that time, I really want to see people or like my boss or like my coworker.
[00:08:25] That I'm more than just a developer that I wanna be heard and, you know, be valued. And, and, and it's not just, like I said, it's not just writing code all the time, but it's more of like, I am part of the team and the business making decisions and kind of being involved, heavily involved in like the ideation of, of a web application or right.
[00:08:52] Or a business process. Yeah, I wanna be really involved. And that's what's what, what kind of missing on my part is [00:09:00] I felt that I'm just there to code like repeatedly and I was not learning and I felt like, you know. There's something that I can change, but I don't know how. Right. And I keep like, I don't know, like there, I know the problem, but I don't know how to solve it.
[00:09:19] So I keep going around and kind of got into the loop of like. Maybe I'll try something different, but it doesn't really work 'cause I really don't know how, like, yeah, like I said, I know the problem, but I don't know how to solve it.
[00:09:33] Zubin: So, so that was, that was Rose back then in, you know, late 2024. And, and who is Rose today?
[00:09:38] What's the transformation that you've gone through so far?
[00:09:40] Rose: I think now with the, the program, the mindset has changed. I, I, I'm not saying 100% change it's still a work in progress, but it's definitely a lot. Better than when I started the program. Like now I have more direction and like I know like [00:10:00] even before starting this new job, like I know what I wanna do and I know what outcome I want in this new job and I'm kind of like preparing more.
[00:10:13] More mentally actually, rather than like the coding part or, yeah. You know, I, I still get this, you know, like, like worry a little bit or being anxious, like, oh, it is a new job and Sure, natural, you know, there's, yeah, there's a lot of things that can happen, but I'm focusing more on how I'm gonna approach it mentally because I feel like, you know, that's the important part and that's what the, the.
[00:10:39] The very important thing that I learned from the program is how to change, at least for me. Mm-hmm. I don't, I cannot speak for everyone, but it, it's the mindset and like learning how to deal with these situations, that kind of, mm-hmm.
[00:10:54] Both: You
[00:10:55] Rose: know, like make a bigger change for me, I think.
[00:10:58] Zubin: And, and so let's talk, 'cause we'll talk [00:11:00] about your new job for a moment.
[00:11:01] 'cause I know you were super excited when you called me and told me you got it. Like you, I, I hadn't seen you that excited ever in the entire, you know, period of the program and for good reason. You had some wonderful experiences in the interview, et cetera. But, you know, let's talk, you said something really important just a moment ago, Rosa, about, about direction.
[00:11:15] What, what does it feel like when someone doesn't have direction and. What's the change that happens when you suddenly do have a direction and you know how to make a plan? So describe that process. Like what does it feel like? What did it feel like for you before you had a sense of direction and what's the change after you've had a sense of direction and the ability to wrap a plan around it?
[00:11:33] Rose: So before I was, you know, I was doing it on my own. I was, I did try. Tutorials. And I did try, you know, lead code and I did tried a bunch of, you know, algorithms like, like app or, or yeah, online materials on and resources mm-hmm. Logs and how do they do things. So I did try that, but yeah, because I didn't have like a solid plan or [00:12:00] no one's like kind of guiding me where to go.
[00:12:03] Both: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:03] Rose: And, and I still have a lot to learn. Like, I, I always keep going back to the same, you know, same point of like. Yeah, nothing really happened. Like if there's, if there's even a change, it's like, it's like a little bit, like one step and then that's it.
[00:12:20] Zubin: How long, how long did you go through this phase, rose?
[00:12:23] Rose: I guess, when I first started my previous company. Two, like first two years. It was, it was great. You know, like, because it's, it's something new.
[00:12:32] Both: Yeah.
[00:12:33] Rose: And you know, I'm kind of like learning a bunch of things, but then yeah, like after three years three plus years, then that's kind of like, I've been doing the same, same thing, but I feel like there's still something missing and, that's where like the question of am I still, do I still feel fulfilled at my current company? Yeah. Do I feel like this, you [00:13:00] know, I can go on for the next two years or so, or maybe not. And all those things, like mostly emotional things. And those like mental questions really bugged me a lot during those, those times.
[00:13:12] But then, yeah, like when starting the program. You know, like, it, it kind of, I think more like, like I said, like it's the, the mental, mental exercises and, and mental modeling kind of help me to really think of why I wanna do this and why I'm stuck and why I don't want to be in this situation. So all those, like, why, kind of like got answered. I think, and, and I think it's,
[00:13:42] Zubin: it's that way for everybody. Rose, I know you, you, you point to it a lot, but pretty much a hundred percent of the students say that they're glad we do the mindset and psychology work in the first part because you can't take action until you know how to think about things.
[00:13:56] Yeah. It's, it's literally simple cause and effect, right? It's how you think [00:14:00] is how you do. And if you're not thinking right, you'll do the wrong things. It's really that simple. So it's, it's no surprises at all. Okay. So, you know, well tell us about your, your, your, your new role now and tell us about your big learnings from the interview.
[00:14:13] 'cause I remember one of the things you said to me was you know, there's, there's a lot of rejection. It's hard and all that, but how have you learned to deal with that? What is your insight that you'd like to share with other people who think that that's, that's because there's something wrong with them?
[00:14:26] What insight have you now achieved that'll unlock you for the rest of your life on interviews?
[00:14:31] Rose: First of all, the mindset of it's not my fault. I think that's the main thing. Not
[00:14:37] Both: always.
[00:14:38] Rose: Yeah.
[00:14:38] Both: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:39] Rose: Yeah. Yeah. But not, not always. Yeah, because there's, like I said, there's a lot of things that happens in the hiring process when, when people.
[00:14:47] Starts to understand the job market and how things work or when, when people have someone like, you know, like in the, the program kind of guide me through that of like, what's happening on the other side. [00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Both: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:00] Rose: That's, that really helped me to like, change my mindset around rejection. So it, it, it's sad.
[00:15:09] It sucks every time it happens. Sure. There's still, you know, a little bit of blaming like, oh, maybe it's my fault, like, you know, I didn't do this and that and that. But I feel like yeah, like understanding the other side of it and putting yourself in that situation kind of helps me to, yeah. To how that, how that to handle
[00:15:28] Zubin: it.
[00:15:28] Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And, and so, you know, you also mentioned how in this interview process, you did a few things differently. You, you asked questions, right? Yeah. Tell us about that. Tell us about how that felt, what kind of courage it took. Were you nervous? What kind of, you know, insights do you have from that experience and why you think that changed so much for you?
[00:15:49] Rose: Yeah. Well, what I did was I was really very intentional this time. It, it, it's more of, yeah, it's more of not just, you know, taking another interview, [00:16:00] but I was really curious about, you know, like, like I, I was kind of ing everything in my head, like the questions that maybe they will ask me and then I prepared for the questions that I will ask them.
[00:16:11] I think that's some nice important thing. And then yeah, like I research about, you know, the company's website. I went through it really. Well, and then I kind of understand even in a high level their products. And, and then I kind of, kind of wrote down ideas of how I can help in their products long term.
[00:16:35] And I, I, I really internalize like you said, you know, like assume that they like you and, and they want you. So I really internalized those things that. I want to be part of their team. I can see, you know, like things that can be improved, things that I can help them, and also things that I can learn from them.
[00:16:57] And by having those mindset, [00:17:00] it's still really, you know, I was still nervous going into the interview.
[00:17:03] Zubin: Oh, that's never gonna go away. That's never gonna go. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:17:06] Rose: But. By having those questions. I wrote it in, in, in, in a notebook and, and I took the notebook in the interview as well. I, I put it down, I, I wrote everything down there and it's just, it, it gave me that.
[00:17:20] Calmness and, and, and confidence that, you know, I really prepared more than what I usually do and this is something maybe different. This is something that maybe they, they will like. And yeah, I got really good, good feedback and that, like I said, the interview, you know, was more of like a collaboration like I was.
[00:17:43] On their team. And I, I, I really enjoyed it. Like I've never, you know, I've never had this type of interview before and it was more of like, you know, they were like, my opinions and my ideas were, were being heard, and then I, I was getting feedback [00:18:00] real time as if. I am one of their team members.
[00:18:03] Zubin: Yeah.
[00:18:04] Rose: And well, you did
[00:18:05] Zubin: act like you were one of the team members.
[00:18:06] That's the interesting thing, because you used a really important word. You were intentional and you prepared a lot, you know? And like I keep telling you guys, assume that they want you there because it's very expensive to hire. It's not just in terms of money. It's expensive money wise too, but also in time and effort.
[00:18:20] It's really a lot of work. And so if you are in the interview, they've spent a lot of time, at least most of the time, if they're a good interview, they spend a lot of time to get you there. And so if you act like you're part of the team, they're gonna love it. Because I've been on the hiring side a long time now across all my careers.
[00:18:38] I can't tell you how desperate hiring managers tend to be, especially at smaller places, to find somebody. They just want the job search done. They just as, as much as the candidate wants it, the hiring manager wants it. And so if you end up being the person that they can imagine in the team right away, it changes the dynamic.
[00:18:55] Like you said, you, you started off nervous, but then you ended up enjoying the interview. Like how [00:19:00] often does that happen? Right?
[00:19:01] Both: Yeah.
[00:19:01] Zubin: It comes from the intentionality. Good on you. Well done.
[00:19:04] Both: Thank you.
[00:19:04] Zubin: So, you know, what would you, looking back, right, if people are like worried about learning to code, worried about becoming an engineer, worried about leveling up their, their, their you know, careers.
[00:19:15] What do you think is the, is the difference between focusing on the job and focusing on the career? What advice would you give to people on that?
[00:19:24] Rose: I guess I would say focus on the career as a general, because they're, you know, like if you learned how to code already or if you know how to code already like you can do the job, you know, no, no matter what, but when it comes to, when you think about your, your career, it's, it's, it's a lot of things.
[00:19:49] And I think. For me, that's where I like faced my why. Like why do I want to stay in this industry? Why do I [00:20:00] want to, to move to another company?
[00:20:03] Zubin: Why we spend so much time on that in module too. Yeah. Yeah. Why am
[00:20:05] Rose: I stuck in everyth all the why? So I think, you know, figuring out. For people who wants to get into software engineering.
[00:20:13] I know it's really hard. I've, I've been there and you know, like, or for people who are already here. I mean, it's still hard no matter what
[00:20:22] Zubin: Both, it never stops being hard. This is what I tell people. It never, something magically becomes easy. Yeah.
[00:20:26] Rose: Yeah. It both ways. It's still hard, but I think like knowing why you wanna do, do it.
[00:20:33] The very first time, or, or, yeah. When you decide, I wanna, I wanna be a software engineer, I wanna be in the software industry. Like, like ask yourself why. I think that's the most important. Because if you're just there for, you know, if I'm being honest, like if you're just there for the money, if you're just there for like the title, oh, I'm a software engineer, it's, it's cool.
[00:20:56] Right? You're kind of famous. It, it, it won't really [00:21:00] last. It's not gonna help you last in the industry because, you know, I, I've, I've been here for, I, I guess in totality like more than five years, like. I stayed. Even though every, you know, every company, every job sucks. And it's not always perfect. Every, every company has flaws, every experience is, is, is has something on it, has bad on it.
[00:21:24] So like, yeah, I, I think because I, because I really want this, like, bad, you know, I, I like, I like the challenges that it gives me. I, I learn a lot from it. Yeah. Whenever I. I solve a bug, it's like, damn, it's a big accomplishment, even if it's a small one. You know, like, like if, if you, you think you have that feeling, you have that.
[00:21:48] Like inner drive. I think of like, it, it's a spark Whenever you do something and you, whenever you accomplish, even if it's, yeah, even if it's like centering a dip, I know every [00:22:00] everyone will say it's hard.
[00:22:00] Zubin: It's a joke. Yeah. But you know, but it's true. It it is the, yeah. You know, what you're describing there is the love for the craft.
[00:22:06] And I, I wish there was a wave that people really understand this. Right. I've been saying this for so many years in the program. Like I, what I've coached. I mean, 'cause we work with so few people at a time. I wanna say we've coached maybe 80 to a hundred people, you know, in the last few years. It's not a lot of people because we work with so few, but there's always one factor that separates the people that succeed enormously from everybody else.
[00:22:32] It's not intelligence, it's not even geography. A lot of people think, oh, being in the right city matters, it helps a lot.
[00:22:38] Both: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:38] Zubin: But we have so many people who aren't in the greatest geographies who do well. Right. The one thing that separates the people from everybody else is what you said. They've gotta want it so badly.
[00:22:50] That's literally it. It, it makes up for if you think you're not smart enough, doesn't matter if you think you're not in the right city. It doesn't matter if you think you have the wrong background. Doesn't matter. You just have to want it more [00:23:00] than the other people.
[00:23:01] Both: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:01] Zubin: And that's why career change is hard.
[00:23:04] It's because the market, it'll keep saying, no, no, no, no. It's all about this. It's all about the skill. It's all about the easy, obvious thing, but it's never just about that because there's always gonna be people better than you.
[00:23:15] Both: Yes.
[00:23:16] Zubin: There's always gonna be people better than you, no matter which profession you're in.
[00:23:19] The only way you stand out to the hiring manager is by being good enough to get the job done and wanting it more than everybody else, and proving that you do. And it's not by doing more lead code, it's by doing what you did, preparing on the company, really going deep, you know, having that conversation, coming up with ideas, bringing a notebook, with all the ideas with you.
[00:23:36] That is a level of preparation. Most people don't do. I've, I've almost never seen that in my interviewing journey in any of my careers, right? Like, people just don't do that. Which is why I tell you do it. It makes you stand out. So look, I, I think, you know, one of the last things I wanna talk to you about, 'cause everyone's gonna look at your story and say, oh, you know, rose, she, well, she had a computer science figure.
[00:23:54] Oh, you know, she was coding a little bit before that. And you know, they'll always diminish your transformation [00:24:00] because they want a reason to feel better about. Themselves by saying it was easier for you. So let's talk about how it is not easy for you. Let's talk about the rejections being laid off just before these interviews and the psychological impact of all that.
[00:24:15] And still, you nailed it out. Hit it out of the park. So let's talk, let's share with the people some of the hardships you went through. Just, you know, at a high level, talk about the rejections, the failed interviews, the offer that God, you know. Modified and like all the weird things you went through. Right.
[00:24:28] That I was there every step of the way. Coaching you through share, share with people, all the setbacks you had.
[00:24:34] Rose: Yeah. I mean, even before joining the program, you know, I've had interviews, I, I've, I've, I failed a lot. Of course, being a social engineer. It's not easy. Even if you get, after you get into the job, the job itself is, oh my God.
[00:24:51] Both: Yeah.
[00:24:51] Rose: Yeah. It's, it's hard, like this industry is so competitive that you, you really have to grind [00:25:00] every day. And I'm not talking about like vibe coding or something. I'm talking about like. Like trying to, you know, like code more than eight hours, more than 12 hours sometimes. 'cause you have to hit the deadline and you have other tasks to do.
[00:25:16] Like it. It's really hard. The nature of the job itself is hard. It's not a joke. That's why I said. It's more, it's more, it's more than writing code. It's, it's very mentally challenging. And if you're not up to it, yeah, you're not gonna last. And this is based on my experience. But yeah, I've had, I've had tons, you know, like a lot of, interview coding, live coding I've, I've heard, you know, people like software engineers, like senior software engineers tell me like, oh, you know, like.
[00:25:47] You know, you're, you, you have good experience, but I think, you know, you're, you're coding lack this and you need to be more faster, or you need to be Yeah. Like you, you, you weren't able to, you [00:26:00] know, like, ex explain your, your thought process and this was, yeah, this was like even before, you know, even before I got in software engineering, I was having a lot of interviews and there was moments where I just.
[00:26:14] Kind of stopped. Like I was, it was life coding and it just, I was blocked
[00:26:21] Both: blank. Yeah.
[00:26:22] Rose: I, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say and I just said, you know, I'm, I'm sorry, but I think I won't be able to finish the, the life coding, and then that's it. They said, okay, thank you for being honest, but I think you are not the one we're looking for.
[00:26:37] Sure. And that's, so I've had those and it's, it's for me. Yeah, it, it is hard. It was really hard. It's not, it's not a joke.
[00:26:46] Zubin: And this is, even though you have a computer set, like people don't understand how, this is not a question of, oh, I have a degree, so it's gonna be easier for me. No, it's not. It is a hard, hard thing in every level, and so many people think that, oh, once I learned to code, I'm gonna [00:27:00] be a software engineer for the rest of my life.
[00:27:01] You're probably not. What's gonna happen is after five to 10 years you're gonna say, okay, I want to get into better pay, better leadership, more impact, more influence. I don't wanna be coding all the time. I wanna be having more strategic impact. 'cause that's where the growth lies. And then now what are you gonna do?
[00:27:15] Now all you've done is code all your life. You haven't learned how to handle your psychology. You haven't learned how to manage your career. You haven't learned how to work with other people, cross-functionally how to communicate, which is why in the program we spend so much time in all of this. 'cause it's about career.
[00:27:28] There's no point jumping out of the Frank Pan and into the fire and succeeding for the first two years of your life and then spending the next 10 years being miserable the way you you were in your previous career. If you're gonna transform your career, transform it for the rest of your life. Otherwise, what's the point, right?
[00:27:45] Like what is the point you're doing this? You're just wasting time. So yeah, so, so for those of you who are listening, you know, O obviously Rose, and I won't go into all the details, but we've been on a few calls where Rose has had some very difficult, unexpected, weird, [00:28:00] or just downright demoralizing outcomes.
[00:28:02] And I will say this, it's not like Rose was impervious or immune to disappointment. Rose has felt. Disappointment, deep discouragement, lost motivation. And every time she'd reach out and we would sit together or talk together or do it over email, whatever was convenient and whatever was needed at the time.
[00:28:21] And then Rose would pick herself back up again. And guys, whoever's listening to this, that's the difference. Rose said it herself. She wanted it more than anything else, and she was willing to pick herself up every time something happened. And yes, lots of things happened. Most of you will see success stories, whether it's Rose or me or somebody else online, and you'll think it was just a cruisy walk to the top or to that level, wherever they are.
[00:28:44] It wasn't, I failed more interviews than I passed. I will continue to fail more interviews than I pass in the, in the future in my career. Rose will also do the same. I had Alene learn on the podcast a couple of times, and if you look for the episode with her, you'll see that she says only about [00:29:00] 25% or less of fang level engineers are consistent.
[00:29:04] Which means 75% or more are not consistent and they get scores all over the board, right? That tells you something about the reality of in of interviews in any career, but especially in engineering, so much of your interview performance de depends on the opinion of the other person, and that dynamic makes for a huge variety of outcomes.
[00:29:22] That may have nothing to do with you on the, like, you know, somebody could love the way you are and the other person may not love the way you are. I have this problem a lot because I'm a bit of a chatty engineer. A lot of engineers don't like me because they're like, you speak too much. Okay. You know, other engineers like it.
[00:29:37] You communicate a lot. We understand where you're thinking. We see where you're going with this. We wanna work with you. Other engineers love it. You're not gonna be for everybody. You're gonna have a lot of setbacks. So, rose, just to wind this up for you. Congratulations. I'm so incredibly proud. And honestly, you know this, you've seen others in the program talk about this.
[00:29:52] They ask great questions and interviewers say, oh, we ask great questions. But we also see people who decide that after doing the [00:30:00] program that maybe software engineering is not the right thing for them. Not because they change their mind about software engineering, but because they realized, hang on, I actually do like the career I'm in.
[00:30:09] I just didn't know how to play the game. Yeah. And now they go back to their career. So, you know, just thank you for sharing your story because the key takeaway for people here is the game is never what you, what it appears from the outside. The rules are a bit different for everybody. You have to manage the way you think, because how you think affects what you do.
[00:30:26] Mm-hmm. Every time you fall down, if you want it badly enough, you will pick yourself up. And that's what motivation looks like. Motivation's not a bumper sticker. Motivation is okay. I know I fell down. I want to do this. I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna pick myself up again. I'm gonna keep going.
[00:30:40] Whatever happens, I'm just gonna keep going. Rose, you've exemplified that. You should be incredibly proud. I was so impressed during the program 'cause you had some setbacks that are like, Ooh, let's see. You know, there's only so much I can do as a coach. I can only hold the mirror up and say, Hey Rose, you've got this.
[00:30:54] It's just a question of time, but you have to do the picking up. You have to step up. I can't do it for you. And [00:31:00] every time you did it, I was so impressed. So well done. Thank you,
[00:31:04] Both: but I did it.
[00:31:05] Zubin: Of course. It's hard. No one should ever expect success to be easy. It is an unreasonable if, if you, if success came easy, that means you got lucky you didn't earn it.
[00:31:14] There's a reason why it's called earning it. 'cause earning is hard. It's hard, you know, it's a competitive world. It's a big planet. You know? Mm-hmm. Right. But again, like we talked about last week, this is the beginning, rose. It's not the envy you, you know, it's not, your goal is the beginning of your next goal.
[00:31:30] Okay? So from here, now you know how to run your career. You know what? You know how to be intentional about these things. There is absolutely no reason why someone like you cannot be VP CTO. Absolutely no reason. Just if that's what you want. If you want to be, you know, an individual contributor, staff engineer, whatever you want, the point is it's more than just having the skill.
[00:31:50] It's a lot more. It's having the intentionality. You have to be intentional. Okay. Right. So you got this, you got this.
[00:31:57] Rose: Thank you.
[00:31:58] Zubin: Absolute pleasure. [00:32:00] Alright, any final words that you'd like to share with the audience about, you know, advice for them that you wish you'd had previously? Any big standouts that you'd like to share with them?
[00:32:07] Anything at all, even from things from within the program? You're welcome to share it. I don't, I don't keep any of the secrets. So, you know what, what, what, anything that you'd like to share with the audience.
[00:32:17] Rose: Yeah, find, you know, a good mentor. Especially, I, I, no, I think it, it really is important, especially, you know, in this industry.
[00:32:26] I know some people can just. I don't know how they do it by themselves, but I feel like in some ways they do have someone to guide them, even if it's a experienced coworker. Even it's the senior, their senior engineers, you know, like Yeah.
[00:32:41] Zubin: It could just be their parents. Sometimes their parents have done it.
[00:32:43] Rose: Yeah. Or, or friends or, you know. Yeah, someone, someone that can give you like a different perspective of what you're. Going through, and maybe they can, you know, you can get their ideas and apply it on your own. But really, I think, you know, if [00:33:00] you, you are serious about things to change seek someone who is, you know, who has experience on, on these things and, and yeah, it should be more than.
[00:33:10] Changing jobs or changing into a company. Yeah, it, it should be more than that should be like a holistic approach. Yeah. And that's why I really like this program and, you know, if. It's hard out there. I know. Like it's, it's gonna be, like you said, it's, it's, it's gonna be a different level of, of heart every time.
[00:33:30] But like I said, if you're, if you really want this job or, or, or this certain career or whatever, just, just find your, your why every time and kind of stick to it. And then, and it will really, it will really help you even if it's like you don't wanna do it because on the
[00:33:48] Both: dark.
[00:33:48] Rose: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah,
[00:33:51] Zubin: you know people, it's quite funny 'cause you say the thing about the problems getting bigger and you know, at the gym people celebrate when the weight, when they're able to lift [00:34:00] heavier weight, it's a sign of progress.
[00:34:02] Why isn't that the case in real life? Like if your problems are bigger, that means you've grown. It means you are at the next level. People seem to think that, oh, when you go to the next level, everything, you're gonna be sitting in a yacht somewhere, drinking beer, a cloud. It's not that way. It's like at the gym.
[00:34:15] Next level means heavier weight, more load, more stress in the body, right? That is literally what leveling up means. It's the same thing in real life. Your problems get bigger and you should celebrate when you have a bigger problem than you did last year. That's literally proof of progress. Like that's a good thing.
[00:34:30] It's not a sad thing. It's a good thing, you know, and you can handle it. You can take the load.
[00:34:34] Rose: Yeah. I think, I think with that, my, my takeaway on that is like, I think, you know, most people, especially me too, like, I see it as like a, yeah, like I said, like a negative thing and like, I think, you know, these, these challenges and these failures and these negative things.
[00:34:52] It's kind of like, like, like it's mask, you know, it's actually growth. Yeah. So if, if we're not like [00:35:00] being challenged in life, if we're not like, you know, like tripping or, or getting our head bumped or whatever. If Yeah. If we're not having those challenges, like Yeah. You know, like you, you have, I, I don't, I don't know.
[00:35:14] I'm not saying seek for it. Yeah. But I'm saying like, these will help us. Like really grow. Yeah. So, yeah, it's hard. It's hard to. To flip it, that these are like, these are amazing. I need this to grow. This will make me stronger.
[00:35:30] Zubin: Yeah. I mean, the mind is no less a muscle like the body, you know, it's the same thing as life is the gym for the mind.
[00:35:35] That's what happens. You know, you can treat it that way. And look, your, your recent success is big. I know you are worried about what kind of next level job you're, you're gonna be at your new roles, you know, at a big national chemical company and you're doing a lot of engineering work. And a lot of people think, oh, the only engineering work is out there in Fang.
[00:35:51] It is not true. Some of the most interesting problems you'll solve is in companies where you're much closer into the business and the business is not necessarily just [00:36:00] software. Like if there are other things to the business, you will solve some really difficult problems. The reason Amazon's an interesting place is not because Amazon is a tech company, but because Amazon is a distribution company.
[00:36:11] That's what makes Amazon really hard. You know, it's, it's a really hard thing. So you are gonna do very, very well. Thank you again for your time. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and advice. Always here for you. You know, that you be such a small community that we are always there for each other.
[00:36:23] So congratulations once again and I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day. Thank you for being on the show.
[00:36:29] Rose: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for all the help. Thank you for, for everything. For, for the push and, and all those things like, you know, I'm really grateful for this program and, you know, for the mentoring and everything, even though you said like, we, like we do all the heavy lifting, but it's still nice to have someone directing you to the right path.
[00:36:49] So it's, it's really amazing. Thank you so much.
[00:36:52] Zubin: It's, it's literally is a pleasure, rose. It's why I do it. It's such a joy for me. So thank you for, thank you for saying that. But all right. We'll have you up maybe in a few, you [00:37:00] know, months or in a year or so to report back on your first year and all the growth, but we'll, we'll have another episode with you in, in, in the future for sure.
[00:37:06] But thanks again and I'll see you next time.
[00:37:08] Rose: See you. Thank you.
OUTRO
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